When does full arm extension occur?

[Slapper23]

In the team setting - which is basically year-round in California - your primary objective is to get the hitter ready for Saturday. Makes it hard to take a long-range view to building a swing,

Most definitely, but it is doable with a lot of work and patience.

and makes it more likely you'll merely put a band-aid on a problem.

That is your opinion and i respect it, but I disagree that it is likely I'm putting a band-aid on the problem.

You find yourself wishing for a month or two with no games so that you can get a little more radical with the hitters.

That happens in the summer for some of the kids. What you are saying is nothing new to me. I've coached at the travel/HS level the past 21 consecutive years. A lot of work, sweat, time, and effort has gone into coaching during these years.

Scott, teaching is satisfying, no doubt.

Mike

 

[tom.guerry]

scott -

I think there is good evidence in golf as well that feel is similar for the same pattern.

Hardy makes the essential point that there are 2 basic mature/total body patterns based on whether the shoulders actively turn or more passively connect in reaction to the arm and hip actions on either end.

The one plane active shoulder turn pattern feels like swinging around.

The 2 plane hips and arms pattern feels like swinging around. if you have to swing at something low, you bend over more but still swing around.

If you swing like MLB players and Williams, in general you should feel like you are swinging down.

When you do analysis, you see that the bat swings up which it must do to match the oitch trajectory and not cut across it too much. On video the hands may god down and come up some or not depending on swing/location.

Still the overall feel is swing down,even if you want to describe the overall swing as a "slight upswing".

I don't have any problem reconciling what Williams says with a swing down feel.

Even for very high balls, the MLB patern still feels like swinging down, not swinging around.

And it feels like hips and hands (as opposed to arms and hips in golf).

And it feels like you "keep the shoulder in there", NOT like you turn the shoulder like crazy.

A further important finding by Hardy is that each pattern has a specific arm and body action or as he says, each pattern has "2 motors".

In MLB, you need to have the compatible arm action which for loading is largely the same as overhand throw arm action.

This includes the similarity of, including similarity of feel of cocking the hips and cocking the hands and winding the rubberband as Williams and Epstein describe.

Likewise in Homer Kelley's The Golf Machine, the feel is consistent if the precisely enough described mechanics (he describes a number of components and how they can be mixed to a variety of swings) are executed. "mechanics produce feel and feel reproduces mechanics".

Once you apply the pattern filter and understand that you need to pay attention to the upper and lower motors and how they synch, you can use precision terminology (kinesiological terms in this case) to describe swing flow/sequence in a way that describes the swing precisely enough to communicate feel and determine that the feel of similar mechanical patterns IS consistent across individuals.

If feel is NOT consistent, then it means there is mixing of patterns, and the more they are mixed/confused, the less consistent and effective they are.

We have discussed this before as "pattern based universals" (apply pattern filter) and "arm action is king" (patterns have 2 motors with upper motor in charge of synch, throwing and swinging being similar) and the effectiveness of describing swing sequence at the joint motion (not muscular) level.

This allows the various MLB pattern descriptions to be reconciled/mixed as opposed to having to adhere strictly to one authority.

In the case of PCR, a core guideline is emphasis on turning the shoulders which is not compatible with the MLB swing, so it can only be confusing to learning if you emphasize shoulder turn and at the same time say swing the way you see MLB hitters swing as a guide.

 

[Slapper23]

Hardy makes the essential point that there are 2 basic mature/total body patterns based on whether the shoulders actively turn or more passively connect in reaction to the arm and hip actions on either end.

In the case of PCR, a core guideline is emphasis on turning the shoulders which is not compatible with the MLB swing,

Scott, my recollection of Steve's (Englishbey) instruction was this emphasis on actively turning the shoulders from the get-go. I remember Steve's thoughts on getting tension in the lead shoulder/lead arm link and turning like hell. This tension eliminated slop or slack in the swing and created a more direct-drive like connection.

I also recall Steve saying how far he could hit a ball with only his lead arm off a tee. And that we might think about turning around natural righties to the left side so you could take advantage of your dominant arm in a lead arm role.

IMO, the top hand is dominant in the swing, not the lead. And this is what I see in ML hitters. You already know my other thoughts on the active hand/forearm motion in getting the bat turning/whipping out of the load position...while the shoulders resist actively turning but instead laterally tilt to enhance getting the hands flat quickly. The shoulders do actively turn , but not at the point in time Steve would teach hitters, IMO...unless he has changed his thinking on this.

Mike

 

[skeptic]

One thing I've learned since my daughter started playing in college is that it is pretty tough to hit in college. Stats are real (not daddy ball). Pitchers are consistently good, and you almost never get a D1 pitcher that you can "get fat" on. Instruction in college is sporadic, and most of the successful kids are dancing w/ who brung 'em. (and if Skeptic wants to take exception to that, have at it. It's still my observation).

I do want to take some exception.


I believe I know who your daughter is, and it appears she is having some early success in college, and I appreciate that. And it appears you have been around as a coach and instrutor for a while as well, and I have seen your Club team play. Some of the swings looked pretty good, and I know you have put a number of kids into college.


So I understand you are not just some dad out there who watched a hitting tape and thinks he knows everything. Meaning your opinion about instruction quality in college has a little bit of weight.


But I hear LOTS of parents saying pretty much the same thing, and they have no basis for the opinion.


In your case, I'll simply say this: Your overstate the situation. There are bad hitting instructors in college, for sure. But there are some very good ones as well. And the average is pretty good, in my opinion. It's true that I have a bias. So do you, I would imagine.


The hitting instruction in college is generally systematic and geared to improve and maintain improvement over time. It is far more regular (typically daily) then kids have ever had before. It is geared towards the pitching the kid is likely to see, and to the team's philosophical style. There are considerations you are not taking into account, and in general, I think most college instructors DO take those things into account, and do a pretty good job of preparing the kids.


I'm not sure of the basis of your opinion. If it is as parochial as the college instructors simply not using your particular guru, I think you are narrow-minded. If it is based on the smaller number of colleges with which you are most familiar, then I would submit your sample is too small. You yourself say that hitting is hard in college, and eloquently make the case for the fact that the kid's stats were probably inflated when she got there. If the instruction is bad at the college level, how come so many kids hit, and hit well?

 

[skeptic]

I don't have any problem reconciling what Williams says with a swing down feel.

You don't appear to have any trouble reconciling anything ANYBODY says to your world view.

He says it feels like he is swinging up, and you say he really means it feels like he is swinging down.

Makes it hard to argue with you, that's for sure. You provide voluminous data, much of which is contradictory. When someone actually reads your data and finds an inconsistency you should have caught on your own, you merely say that the person actually meant something else.

It's weird. And doesn;t advance the conversation much. Makes you look pretty smart, I guess.

Ever tried it with a kid? Coaching a team? Tell you what, if you have some HS age hitters, PM me with your summer schedule. I'll come watch, and once I get there, introduce myself to you. If your kids can hit, you and I can talk. I'm always looking for hitters for my program.

 

[jofus13]

.310 (31 hits out of 100 abs) with 8 hrs, 30 rbis as a freshman....I would say that is a decent start to her college career

 

[tom.guerry]

skeptic -

I think the principles I describe provide a framework for reconciling the info from different sources that are describing the MLB swing and/or its components.

So there is no conflict in saying, when you swing in this pattern:

you swing down

it's hips and hands

you keep the shoulders in there

the swing is a slight upswing to increase the contact zone for solid contact

you hit with unbroken top hand wrist, or at least before top hand wrist rolls.

Do you have a problem with those feels ?

How consistent are they across hitters when they do swing in the MLB pattern ?.


With regard to similarity of cues based on precision description of loading sequence using kinesiological terms/dealing at the skeletal/joint motion level, here is an example.

We say throwing is some how like swinging/ifyou can throw you can hit. major proponents of this are Dixon,Yeager, Slaught.

Hodge describes the throwing sequence kinesiologically, including the primary role of the back arm in the loading sequence, aBduction/INternal rotation/External rotation.

I apply this same sequence to describing how to load in the swing and describe this as the "arm action is king" approach after Nyman who says throwing and swinging are similar and in throwing arm action is king, but mysteriously it is not king in swinging.

I send the Hodge tape to Donny Buster and Yeager and Sarge among others.

FFS/five frame swing studies Yeager.

BM reads the various forums and comes to his own conclusions.

Donny and I and FFS and Yeager and BM all now emphasize the role of the back "humerus"/elbow in loading which involves a certain consistent reproducible feel in my opinion. See:

Baseball Fever - View Single Post - Swing analysis - 14 year old

FFS: "I've had reasonable success by improving the loading of the rear shoulder and rear humerus as the hitter launches their swing (i.e., as the hitter brings their hands back ... creating rear-hip to rear-elbow separation ... or as BM says, leading back with the rear elbow ... or using the Yeager cue of "taking the ball out of the glove with the rear humerus".). A lack of a load here can, IMO, lead to early disconnection."

If you can throw, you can hit. arm action is king. there are universals, but they are pattern dependent. feel is consistent. mechanics produce feel, feel reproduces mechanics,etc.

 

[ssarge]

.310 (31 hits out of 100 abs) with 8 hrs, 30 rbis as a freshman....I would say that is a decent start to her college career

Thank you, I am very proud of her. She has worked extremely hard for years, and I am pleased to see it pay off for her.

Best regards,

Scott

 

[Slapper23]

Scott,

I'm really glad to see Kelly's success! Then again I know how much time and effort you put into her swing. I wish her nothing but continued success.

Mike

 

[Wellphyt]

I don't have any problem reconciling what Williams says with a swing down feel.

Given the fact that the swing is a shallow "U" shape, with a down and up component, I don't have any problem reconciling what Williams and Bonds are saying either.