When does full arm extension occur?

[Wellphyt]

Instead elbows are bent and extend after contact. My question is at what point?

The arms should naturally extend immediately after contact. The location of the arms in space once they extend will vary depending on pitch location. For a right handed hitter I would say that on a pitch down the middle the arms will be pointed over the pitcher's head, on an inside pitch they will be pointed to the left side of the pitcher, and on an outside pitch they will be pointed to the right side of the pitcher. However you would never teach this.

What you teach is the concept of extending the arms through/after contact. Or as Tom says the proper sequence.

 

[Slapper23]

Couldn't disagree more. MLB hitting instructors don't have that kind of detail. College coaches don't. Parents almost certainly don't, and players never do. And I am at a loss to know why ANYONE would accept it from a single source, even if they did think it valuable. Particularly a single source who is not involved in hands-on instruction. May be the nicest guy in the world - obviously, you and he are friends, and that's great. May be the most well-intentioned guy in the world. MAY even be right - I truly don't know, because as I said, I don't understand it. But where is the credibility if the author doesn't actually work with hitters?

Skeptic,

Pardon me if I don't take your opinion in regard to MLB and college coaches. It's such a global statement, so all encompassing, that I have some doubt regarding your opinion - and I say this ONLY as it narrowly applies to this one opinion of yours. I'm sure you are very well informed concerning hitting, although I haven't heard or read much of your hitting instruction philosophy/methodology. Heck, I don't even know who you are nor who you coach. You choose to keep that to yourself for your own reasons. A LOT of people know who I am on the web - my name and who I coach.

Concerning what works and relating that to Tom, who you keep saying doesn't coach anyone, I will say this...regardless of who Tom coaches and at what level, if one agrees about what Tom writes because it is exactly what you see in ML hitters...then you've got a winner, IMO. And this goes for anyone - if what they say and write matches what one sees ML hitters doing in regard to swing mechanics and swing sequencing - then I would listen very closely. Trouble is there are nuances of the swing that are missed by some, and two people can look at the came clip and disagree on what they see....and so it goes.

I've said this before....Tom Guerry is HIGHLY thought of by one successful, perrenial Top 20 D1 softball head coach. I know this coach and we have talked mutiple times about our mutual high regard for Tom.

MO, what a parent should do is get with an instructor who intuitively / actually understands athletic movement, and how to apply it to the softball swing.

Tom doesn't instruct for money, but he definitely fulfills part of your statement above, and that is, he does intuitively/actually understands athletic movement as it pertains to the swing. And by the way, Coach, I didn't know there was something called "the softball swing."

Take care,
Mike

 

[skeptic]

Concerning what works and relating that to Tom, who you keep saying doesn't coach anyone, I will say this...regardless of who Tom coaches and at what level, if one agrees about what Tom writes because it is exactly what you see in ML hitters...then you've got a winner, IMO. And this goes for anyone - if what they say and write matches what one sees ML hitters doing in regard to swing mechanics and swing sequencing - then I would listen very closely. Trouble is there are nuances of the swing that are missed by some, and two people can look at the came clip and disagree on what they see....and so it goes.

Sure. Still worth discussing, though.

Analysis has a certain value. Using it to teach kids to hit is infinitely more valuable IMO. If your kids hit consistently at a high level, then there isn't much argument left. Whatever you are doing works. Absent that evidence, who knows?


Which is why I asked and will reiterate the following:

How about describing the simpler language you use to communicate with hitters after distilling down his comments? I would sincerely be interested in that.

What drills do you use to put a hitter in good extension position? Are they the same for every hitter? Is there a sequence of drills (where do you start, etc., where do you progress to?).

Etc. I AM interested in what you say as it relates to hitters you actually work with. THAT is relevant.

 

[FJRGerry]

Thanks everyone for your input! I didn't realize my question would raise such a firestorm though...

 

[tom.guerry]

This thread has a lot of nice pictures of hands/grip in both stance and at/after contact:

Bat grip - Baseball Fever

 

[tom.guerry]

skeptic said:

Which is why I asked and will reiterate the following:


Quote:
How about describing the simpler language you use to communicate with hitters after distilling down his comments? I would sincerely be interested in that.

What drills do you use to put a hitter in good extension position? Are they the same for every hitter? Is there a sequence of drills (where do you start, etc., where do you progress to?).

Etc. I AM interested in what you say as it relates to hitters you actually work with. THAT is relevant.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is why I posted the link to the Wright in post #2 above.

skeptic -

What do you think of these one arm drills ?

 

[skeptic]

I use one-armed drills to practice maintaining connection. Period. In essence, in most cases, maintaining connection means trying to get the arms to do LESS, not more. It means allowing the body to do more.

So the video wasn't too impressive to me, as the guy indicates he does MORE than most pro players with his hands and arms.

He doesn't appear to, BTW. It seems to be just how he thinks about / characterizes / feels the swing. His mechanics look typical.

I think that a video where a pro hitter talks about FEELING that his shoulders end in the same place as they start - even while they are clearly ending 90-110 degrees rotated from where they started - is an absolute proof statement for the fact that basing hitting mechanics on what guys say they feel is crazy.

 

[Slapper23]

Skeptic,

IMO, if you understand what Wright is talking about - the feeling of his shoulders beginning and ending in the same place - which we know is not reality, then relate his feeling to what you see him doing - what he says makes perfect sense.

Wright talks about not getting too much of his body involved early on as he begins his one hand drill. He wants his hands and arms to get started and begin turning or whipping the bat out of his load position - thereby creating early bat speed - early whip.

This is opposed to creating a rigid link between the shoulder and arm/hand and actively rotating the shoulders to pull the bat through the zone. You do get great connection, I'll grant you, but it's the wrong kind of connection, IMO, and not nearly as effecient in creating bat quickness and power.

If you try to stop-action the clip of Wright doing the top hand drill, you see his shoulders barely move as his hand/forearm begin turning the barrel.

I'm not being critical when I say this, just trying to clarify - but you mentioned using one hand drills to practice maintaining connection. It sounds to me like you are doing the drills as I described with actively turning shoulders from the first move. This would be much different than the manner in which Wright is doing them.

Mike

 

[Slapper23]

I use one-armed drills to practice maintaining connection. Period. In essence, in most cases, maintaining connection means trying to get the arms to do LESS, not more. It means allowing the body to do more.

At the start of the swing, you want the hands/arms to do more...just as Wright says, IMO.

So the video wasn't too impressive to me, as the guy indicates he does MORE than most pro players with his hands and arms.

Completely disagree. I see him talking about and doing what the majority of ML hitters do.

He doesn't appear to, BTW. It seems to be just how he thinks about / characterizes / feels the swing. His mechanics look typical.

Typical of ML hitters? Yes, and in the way Wright describes. ML hitters' swings begin behind them in creating whip out of the load position...not out in front by actively turning the shoulders and creating whip at contact.

Skeptic,

I think I have a better idea of what your swing approach is, based on the above. And that's fine, although I completely disagree with it. Obviously you beleive in what you're doing.

Mike

 

[tom.guerry]

Good discussion.

I think of things in terms of 2 different patterns, MLB and PCR or what Candrea/Enquist call "gate swing", each having a very different way of "connecting".

To have the discussion means defining connection, not just as a position/which position, but also in terms of what is mechanically happening.

I think it is best in the MLB pattern to think in terms of how "connection" as defined positionally by Candrea is necessary for what he calls "addition" or "summation" to occur (segmentation/kinetic chain/kinetic link/summation of levers/summation of velocity/whip/whatever you want to call it. The segmenta need to peak in the right order and sum efficiently from link to link, hips to torso to hands to bathead, AND in the case of MLB, this needs to happen spatially "early".

This requires using the arms and shoulders to be somehow loaded back and be able to stay back and resist coming forward as the load and connection is established.

What is created at "connection" (positionally hands/bat/elbow lined up with stripe in back pants, angle at back elbow not yet widening. Here is a clip of Bonds getting to "connection":


This position is at the end of "drop and tilt" which is the end of "cusp" formation/moment of maximum x-factor/separation. Bathead has running start, hips will now decelerate and torso will hit max unloading momentum while angle is still not widening in back arm, then hands will hit max momentum, then bathead as "addition proceeds").

So the kind of "connection" you are trying to create ends with the last quicj stretch of the torso with hands staying back which is what permits the spatially early bathead trajectory that is adjustable temporally "late".

Wright is describing how the arms work in this pattern