- May 11, 2009
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LOL That is funny Amy!! Good Luck!!
Understanding the real "enemy"
- Thread starter Ken Krause
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the boy's baseball coach at the high school here wants all his players swinging down, heard on of the girls dad tell her daughter that she needs to swing down on the ball to hit line drives, I got asked to help at a D2 hitting clinic, coach was telling me he thought his team was going to tear up the conference there in, seen them in at the Rebel games in FL, got 3 runs in ten games. After the 3 game he asked me what i thought they where doing i said every girl had an arm bar and couldn't hit an inside pitch. He seen me the next day and said he work with them in warm ups and think he has it fixed. I'm thinking in the back of my head that he's not going to fix his problem in a 20 min warm up. I find a lot of people that there pride keeps them from being able to say hey i was teaching it wrong.
- Feb 18, 2010
- 38
- 0
I agree Ken, there are some things on the macro level that are commonly agreed upon, and should be introduced as evidence. The issue I see is, as has already been stated in this thread, many if not most coaches teaching these things have either taught that way for years, or learned from someone else who taught that way for years. It becomes a battle that is on par with someone switching political parties or religions. I am sure we all know how "religious" some coaches are in their teaching methods. When entering a battle of that magnitude the initial response of the responsible public will be to investigate further into what is being said. After investigation, they find that while some things are agreed upon, many others are not. This is where you lose the most public support. People stop investigating because they feel a true new teaching system is not in place due to the many contentions on fine points. These statements are based on my own efforts at trying to get people to look deeper into how hitting is taught. I have many friends in the baseball/softball community from a LL that routinely has 750 kids playing every spring, to middle school and high school coaches with whom I have both coached and competed against, and of course the very large travel ball community in my area. Of those100 or so who I have directed to look deeper into hitting instruction, only two have stuck it out long enough to glean even the macro changes from. The response every time is that while there is great info out there, no one really agrees on what is actually done, at least in the current teachings there is agreed support. Then there is the second response that usually accompanies the first, most of those guys are just trying to make a buck.
I would not at all be against someone creating a list of these macro level things that are agreed upon for review and possibly better discussion in a way to present such to people. This is one of the biggest reasons I find such value in the posts of Tewks many times. He has a facility and trains many hitters while putting as much free info and result examples out there for everyone to see. I find value in Hitters posts much the same way, with all of the work he has done and info he has put out for free. I think common ground can be found, and it would be a great thing for this sport and the kids who play it if it were.
Interesting. I definitely agree with the "religion" aspect of it. People get very comfortable with what they know and they don't want to hear anything else. Even if it might be good for them.
A few years ago our local HS got a new coach. She was fresh from playing D1 softball. I was chatting with her a bit, and said I'd like to talk with her about hitting. She had no interest at all. She already knew everything she needed to know, and there certainly wasn't anything some local travel ball coach could teach her.
Well, her teams never hit very well. What she knew was all that old school stuff, so she'd take good hitters and turn them into weak ones.
As it turned out her tenure was short, but not because of poor hitting. She made some poor decisions that eventually cost her that job.
A few years ago our local HS got a new coach. She was fresh from playing D1 softball. I was chatting with her a bit, and said I'd like to talk with her about hitting. She had no interest at all. She already knew everything she needed to know, and there certainly wasn't anything some local travel ball coach could teach her.
Well, her teams never hit very well. What she knew was all that old school stuff, so she'd take good hitters and turn them into weak ones.
As it turned out her tenure was short, but not because of poor hitting. She made some poor decisions that eventually cost her that job.
Ken -
At a deep but not too deep/fundamental enough level, the conflict (us/them/friends/enemies) arises, in my opinion, from fighting mother nature.
The throwing and swinging skills can be best thought of as being organized and learned by the realization of one or more of a finite set of universally (in humans) inborn patterns.The closer the individual adheres to the pattern, the more consistent the performance will be.
The only way out of the us/them/conflict is awareness/knowledge of patterns.
Some patterns are substantially more effective than others for some tasks. Sometimes there are equally effective alternative patterns, but consistency is lost if defining details of the patterns are mixed.
The best example of swing pattern definition, analysis and teaching is the work of Jim Hardy in golf. The key point in this case is that the swing can be sorted in to one of two patterns based primarily on how the shoulders work in connecting the upper limbs to the lower body. Patterns have certain attributes/details which are in near total opposition so it is dangerous to mix patterns. Hybrids mean more inconsistency.error,failure.
It is important to identify these oppositional details, because, while they are details, they are NOT nuance, they are the essence of pattern/success vs failure as in the case of how you choose to work the shoulders in the swing.
See this article on Hardy, for example:
Testimonials
After nearly 30 years of studying hundreds of golf swings and observing dozens of instructors, the swing guru from Houston has adopted the theory that all golfers use a one-plane or a two-plane swing - and that the concepts of those two don't mix.
"You can use either one and you can be successful with either one, as long as you don't mix and match," Hardy said. "The elements are not compatible and, as a result, there are probably more people being hurt by instruction than at any time in history.
"If you look at guys like Seve Ballesteros, Ian Baker-Finch, Chip Beck and David Duval - they have been taught right out of their business. They have lost their game. Duval was the No. 1 player in the world, and he didn't just fall out of bed one day and forget how to play. What happened is he has mixed two-plane issues with a one-plane swing."
===============
In the case of fastpitch, if you want to have a chance to clear up the conflict, you have to sort the options by pattern to reduce the confusion enough to communicate adequately.
There is one basic windmill pitching pattern which is the best understood of all the throw/pitch/swing patterns in either baseball or fastpitch. Yes there are still a few slingshotters, but windmill is nearly universal now and there are step vs leap and drag variants, but these are very similar and enough coaches understand them that pitchers will continue to dominate fastpitch for the forseable future. There are lots of excellent pitching coaches in fastpitch.
In the case of baseball, the high level throw pattern is not very well understood but it is recognized and selected out by the competitive environment and many learn a good throw "naturally" at a young age. The high level swing pattern that resembles the high level throw is likewise poorly understood but recognized and selected out in baseball, but relatively few learn the high level swing pattern because few recognize it or describe it well enough and feedback is less exact (than ball flight in golf or hitting target in throw).
In fastpitch, there is much less demand for high level throw consistency and throwing mechanics are variable/inconsistent. There is confusion in learning due to mixing with windmill mechanics and overstructured/uninformed coaching as well as the task being more difficult using the oversize ball.
Learning a high level overhand throw is, in turn a prerequisite for most to learn a high level swing. High tech bat technology becomes a crutch that further lowers any incentive to teach/learn a pure mechanical pattern in fastpitch.
A serviceable alternative to the high level swing pattern in fastpitch is the PCR/gate swing pattern which can work fine in fastpitch given the current equipment and if the player lacks good overhand throw mechanics.
BUT, mixing oppositional swing details/attributes (high level vs gate swing) will make learning very difficult, again the worst of all along these lines is anything that changes how shoulders work.
The high level swing pattern that is similar to high level overhand throw and that predominates in MLB/woodbat leagues requires "keeping the shoulders in there" and "live and independent hands" and has the "hands and hips" and "swing down" feel.
If the player does not have high level overhand throw mechanics and can not make progress learning them, then the PCR/gate swing pattern is a good alternative. In this case the body turns middle out, no independent hands with a "swing around" feel. The knees need to get close together with weight going forward early to turn faster and the shoulders ARE level (in swing plane), but up/down adjustment is made by more or less "bend at waist" or "anterior tilt".
As Hardy says in golf, when you understand patterns, there are things that belong in 1 plane swings and things that belong in 2 plane swings (some of which can work in both and some of which are nearly totally incompatible as with shoulder action) and some things that do not belong in ANY golf swing.
So if we go back to your initial list, I think "level shoulders" works fine with PCR as long as you realize that "level" does not mean level to the ground, but level to the plane you set by anterior bend at waist
#2 is back foot staying in same place which is nonsensical, and
#3 is no hip rotation before contact which does not belong in any power swing.
===========
Until people learn to take a pattern perspective, communication will be inadequate to prevent the conflict that ultimately arises from trying to fool mother nature.
At a deep but not too deep/fundamental enough level, the conflict (us/them/friends/enemies) arises, in my opinion, from fighting mother nature.
The throwing and swinging skills can be best thought of as being organized and learned by the realization of one or more of a finite set of universally (in humans) inborn patterns.The closer the individual adheres to the pattern, the more consistent the performance will be.
The only way out of the us/them/conflict is awareness/knowledge of patterns.
Some patterns are substantially more effective than others for some tasks. Sometimes there are equally effective alternative patterns, but consistency is lost if defining details of the patterns are mixed.
The best example of swing pattern definition, analysis and teaching is the work of Jim Hardy in golf. The key point in this case is that the swing can be sorted in to one of two patterns based primarily on how the shoulders work in connecting the upper limbs to the lower body. Patterns have certain attributes/details which are in near total opposition so it is dangerous to mix patterns. Hybrids mean more inconsistency.error,failure.
It is important to identify these oppositional details, because, while they are details, they are NOT nuance, they are the essence of pattern/success vs failure as in the case of how you choose to work the shoulders in the swing.
See this article on Hardy, for example:
Testimonials
After nearly 30 years of studying hundreds of golf swings and observing dozens of instructors, the swing guru from Houston has adopted the theory that all golfers use a one-plane or a two-plane swing - and that the concepts of those two don't mix.
"You can use either one and you can be successful with either one, as long as you don't mix and match," Hardy said. "The elements are not compatible and, as a result, there are probably more people being hurt by instruction than at any time in history.
"If you look at guys like Seve Ballesteros, Ian Baker-Finch, Chip Beck and David Duval - they have been taught right out of their business. They have lost their game. Duval was the No. 1 player in the world, and he didn't just fall out of bed one day and forget how to play. What happened is he has mixed two-plane issues with a one-plane swing."
===============
In the case of fastpitch, if you want to have a chance to clear up the conflict, you have to sort the options by pattern to reduce the confusion enough to communicate adequately.
There is one basic windmill pitching pattern which is the best understood of all the throw/pitch/swing patterns in either baseball or fastpitch. Yes there are still a few slingshotters, but windmill is nearly universal now and there are step vs leap and drag variants, but these are very similar and enough coaches understand them that pitchers will continue to dominate fastpitch for the forseable future. There are lots of excellent pitching coaches in fastpitch.
In the case of baseball, the high level throw pattern is not very well understood but it is recognized and selected out by the competitive environment and many learn a good throw "naturally" at a young age. The high level swing pattern that resembles the high level throw is likewise poorly understood but recognized and selected out in baseball, but relatively few learn the high level swing pattern because few recognize it or describe it well enough and feedback is less exact (than ball flight in golf or hitting target in throw).
In fastpitch, there is much less demand for high level throw consistency and throwing mechanics are variable/inconsistent. There is confusion in learning due to mixing with windmill mechanics and overstructured/uninformed coaching as well as the task being more difficult using the oversize ball.
Learning a high level overhand throw is, in turn a prerequisite for most to learn a high level swing. High tech bat technology becomes a crutch that further lowers any incentive to teach/learn a pure mechanical pattern in fastpitch.
A serviceable alternative to the high level swing pattern in fastpitch is the PCR/gate swing pattern which can work fine in fastpitch given the current equipment and if the player lacks good overhand throw mechanics.
BUT, mixing oppositional swing details/attributes (high level vs gate swing) will make learning very difficult, again the worst of all along these lines is anything that changes how shoulders work.
The high level swing pattern that is similar to high level overhand throw and that predominates in MLB/woodbat leagues requires "keeping the shoulders in there" and "live and independent hands" and has the "hands and hips" and "swing down" feel.
If the player does not have high level overhand throw mechanics and can not make progress learning them, then the PCR/gate swing pattern is a good alternative. In this case the body turns middle out, no independent hands with a "swing around" feel. The knees need to get close together with weight going forward early to turn faster and the shoulders ARE level (in swing plane), but up/down adjustment is made by more or less "bend at waist" or "anterior tilt".
As Hardy says in golf, when you understand patterns, there are things that belong in 1 plane swings and things that belong in 2 plane swings (some of which can work in both and some of which are nearly totally incompatible as with shoulder action) and some things that do not belong in ANY golf swing.
So if we go back to your initial list, I think "level shoulders" works fine with PCR as long as you realize that "level" does not mean level to the ground, but level to the plane you set by anterior bend at waist
#2 is back foot staying in same place which is nonsensical, and
#3 is no hip rotation before contact which does not belong in any power swing.
===========
Until people learn to take a pattern perspective, communication will be inadequate to prevent the conflict that ultimately arises from trying to fool mother nature.
Last edited:
Cannonball
Ex "Expert"
- Feb 25, 2009
- 4,886
- 113
Ken, out of respect for you and this site, I deleted an equally long response to Tom.
Listen, the remarks about religion are spot on. I don't care to change anyone and don't care to have to type a 400 word dissertation on my opinion on how everyone else doesn't know what they are doing while "me and my gang" are the only ones who have figured it out. Simply put people come to sites such as this to read and learn. People have the ability to discern what makes sense to them and how they can implement those ideas. That is why I sometimes share what I do. Certainly you can find every opinion out there and so, there is a vast base of updated information being shared. What one has to do as a parent is to make sure that your child's swing will stand up to any scrutiny. What we did was teach my child the "whys" of what she was doing as she learned. We wanted for her to be able to be her own coach and know her swing so that should someone tinker with it, she can always have a "base" to fall back on to rebuild it. A "fall back swing" is something that Ssarge and others have written extensively on. None of us have the ability to know what philosophy our HS coach or even travel coach buys in to. JMHO!
Listen, the remarks about religion are spot on. I don't care to change anyone and don't care to have to type a 400 word dissertation on my opinion on how everyone else doesn't know what they are doing while "me and my gang" are the only ones who have figured it out. Simply put people come to sites such as this to read and learn. People have the ability to discern what makes sense to them and how they can implement those ideas. That is why I sometimes share what I do. Certainly you can find every opinion out there and so, there is a vast base of updated information being shared. What one has to do as a parent is to make sure that your child's swing will stand up to any scrutiny. What we did was teach my child the "whys" of what she was doing as she learned. We wanted for her to be able to be her own coach and know her swing so that should someone tinker with it, she can always have a "base" to fall back on to rebuild it. A "fall back swing" is something that Ssarge and others have written extensively on. None of us have the ability to know what philosophy our HS coach or even travel coach buys in to. JMHO!
I started to craft a reply in my mind...something like....as a golfer I understand some of what Tom is saying, but then thought some more. With repsect to the golf single plane versus two plane and don't mix the two.....wouldn't mixing the two create a three plane swing? At that point you should take up lawn bowling. As a golfer, and softball coach (former player) I started to get a headache.
Teach was is accepted as the right basic mechanics and you can't go wrong. Most of the posters on this site have provided excellent advice, especially with respect to drills. Hitter, Tewks, Cartersball, Cannonbal (and Mark H if he were still posting) please keep up the excellent work. Your posts are those that are sought out by us teachers that don't have access to coaches such as you. Keep up the good work. If any of you can develop the list of acceptable mechanics that Cartersball suggests I think it would be the beginning of a bible for most of us. Thanks again all.
Teach was is accepted as the right basic mechanics and you can't go wrong. Most of the posters on this site have provided excellent advice, especially with respect to drills. Hitter, Tewks, Cartersball, Cannonbal (and Mark H if he were still posting) please keep up the excellent work. Your posts are those that are sought out by us teachers that don't have access to coaches such as you. Keep up the good work. If any of you can develop the list of acceptable mechanics that Cartersball suggests I think it would be the beginning of a bible for most of us. Thanks again all.
Cannonball
Ex "Expert"
- Feb 25, 2009
- 4,886
- 113
3 DD, you are right in that if you started keeping a list of drills, ideas, etc. from various posters who's ideas make sense to you, then you can fit those drill, concepts into a format to coach our child/team. That is what I did so many years ago. I still use some drills I used in the early 80s. I've incorporated others I've learned from recent years. Again, they have to make sense to you in order for you to pass them on to your players. If you can create a "base" for your players then you've made a good start. I'm sure you know coaches in your area that you respect. Run those ideas past them and then add or detract your thoughts from there. I have a list that I created a long time ago. I shared that with those that agreed and didn't agree with me. It helped me in the process of developing a base for my child. Then, when I wanted to add some drill, I had to think about how that drill worked in the context of what I thought I believed. Also, as you know, not all players will need all drills. So, if you have a good library as you are suggesting, then, you have something to fall back on to help that one player that might need some different drill.
I also agree that Cartersball, Mark, Tewks, and Hitter all provide different thoughts on the swing and some really good ideas on how to work with hitters. While they all aren't in agreement, you can decide what you think works best for you. I'd mention that BoardMember isn't posting as much as he was. He has been a valuable source of information for my child. BM, since your email, BB has hit 13 balls out in scrimmages. First game is this week. Thanks a bunch!
I also agree that Cartersball, Mark, Tewks, and Hitter all provide different thoughts on the swing and some really good ideas on how to work with hitters. While they all aren't in agreement, you can decide what you think works best for you. I'd mention that BoardMember isn't posting as much as he was. He has been a valuable source of information for my child. BM, since your email, BB has hit 13 balls out in scrimmages. First game is this week. Thanks a bunch!
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,796
- 63
Outstanding CB. And I did get your thx via email. I meant to respond but I truely forgot.
Happy to hear I could help.
My Best as always.....
Happy to hear I could help.
My Best as always.....
