for good connection/summation/sequencing/kinetic link /whip/efficient speed gains/etc. is the spinal axis for the hips or the torso or the hand path or the bathead or all of the above ?
Understanding the real "enemy"
- Thread starter Ken Krause
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with regard to acceleration/deceleration/terminal velocity, any deceleration prior to contact will lead to large timing error and poor collision.
Williams said it is always better to be a little late than early. if you get a good read and adjust so timing is just right, that's good too.
Williams said it is always better to be a little late than early. if you get a good read and adjust so timing is just right, that's good too.
Once again we seem to be getting off-track. The thread is about looking at the big picture of hitting, and how those of us who are trying to help our daughters/players/students hitting can work together to protect the work the kids -- and we -- have put in. In other words, how do we get the word out and get the general principles that are part of so-called rotational hitting accepted or at least allowed instead of dismissed by narrow-minded or old thinking coaches.
I’m going to try and get this thread back on track. My DD played for a club team that used one on the more successful club and high school coaches here in Phoenix for hitting instruction. I was very skeptical, when he preached, that you should have your hands in the handshake position on contact. Another of his concepts was to hit down on the ball. While his teams seem to hit well I believe it was because of their athletic ability and practice time at what they always did. My assumption is that good players will do well in any give situation.
This fall I started searching the web and found this and many other useful resources on hitting. While playing at the 18 U levels my DD was making contact and putting the ball in play, it didn’t seem to be hit very hard. We started working on the concepts from this site and others. By the last tournament we played, late January, in Tucson AZ, she was hitting line drives to fence.
I am also going to comment on something that is very rarely talked about on this site. My DD goes to a high school where I consider the coaching top notch. Both the head coach and assistant have lots of softball knowledge and both teach at the school.
My second comment is on the linear or casting type hitter. There is a girl on my DDs high school team that bats left and is extremely fast. The other teams have to respect her ability to bunt and always play up. This opens up the entire field. She does not slap, but does react to the fielders and the pitch. She will rotate and drive the ball to right on occasion. The majority of her hits are done by throwing her hands to the ball and beating the throw to first or by bunting and beating the throw to first. There are athletes that can be very successful and don’t fit the MLB pattern.
This fall I started searching the web and found this and many other useful resources on hitting. While playing at the 18 U levels my DD was making contact and putting the ball in play, it didn’t seem to be hit very hard. We started working on the concepts from this site and others. By the last tournament we played, late January, in Tucson AZ, she was hitting line drives to fence.
I am also going to comment on something that is very rarely talked about on this site. My DD goes to a high school where I consider the coaching top notch. Both the head coach and assistant have lots of softball knowledge and both teach at the school.
My second comment is on the linear or casting type hitter. There is a girl on my DDs high school team that bats left and is extremely fast. The other teams have to respect her ability to bunt and always play up. This opens up the entire field. She does not slap, but does react to the fielders and the pitch. She will rotate and drive the ball to right on occasion. The majority of her hits are done by throwing her hands to the ball and beating the throw to first or by bunting and beating the throw to first. There are athletes that can be very successful and don’t fit the MLB pattern.
Mark13122 said, "There are athletes that can be very successful and don’t fit the MLB pattern. "
In my opinion there are many MLB players who do not fit the MLB pattern either!
If they did they would all be .300 plus hitters. Remember these guys got there because they could hit before they got there and some I may add are better than others and that is termed variation which includes style and mechanics and some get paid more than others.
I have a girl at Ohio University that may not have the MLB Elite Swing Pattern however she has been the offensive player of the year two years in a row and a good part of her education is being paid for and we are still learning. Her Mother who is a high school coach has also won three conference championships in a row, helps at our clinics and works with the little ones in her community and her son who I work with also played in the Frontier League last year and played in the Great Lakes League for three years also and we are still learning!
One MLB veteran and hitting coach who is a friend of mine were talking and he said, "How do you convince a player that is successful that they can improve by changing their grip or how they position their hands or widen or decrease their stance width that is making $20 million a year already?"
So where do you and your daughter fit into the holy grail of seeking the exact blue print of understanding the MLB swing pattern blue print?
Most of your girls can not even throw correctly and we are driving professional hitting mechanics down your throat. Even martial arts has a progress to obtain a black belt so I guess we just skipped a few degrees and belts and decided it would be incumbent to introduce your daughter to the exact style of the MLB Elite Swing Pattern at the young age of 10 to 12 years old.
Maybe we can do it for school also and start at kindergarten and skip to high school because it can't be that hard as everyone should know what the MLB Elite Swing Pattern looks like and be able to teach it! Heck we saw it on video so it must be easy to teach! Just get the hands flat as soon as possible and hit the ball!
If this is so easy to understand and teach why don't all the MLB players hit .300 plus? I am sorry I said that before didn't I?
Then there are the high school coaches who may have played ball in college and have no clue how to teach females because they know nothing about them or how they work!
Do your research on the female ACL issues, over use issues as to pitching and the shoulder injuries.
At our recent clinic there were about 10 girls from the same team sitting on the bleachers and I said it looks like none of you know how to slide correctly (their knees were a mess) or your knees would not be scuffed up. The coach said have you got any suggestions?
I have received several emails from people saying thanks for taking the time to explain in detail what and how you do it however I do not want to admit it works publicly so no one thinks I am not using the MLB Elite Swing Pattern? That is being honest and yet it is sad and funny that they feel so intimidated.
At clinics we also welcome opinions and offer them the bat to demonstrate what they believe is a good, better, best way to do something so everyone understands what we are saying or demonstrating. Tweeks takes the time to post video of what he believes in and Chris posts video's and it all helps someone understand it better for the most part. Then it comes down to trying to teach it in a way the hitter can understand what you think YOU know and all of a sudden it becomes a challenge to the hitter, parent and coaches!
Many of us can inform you what has worked for us from experience ( and that is vastly different for many of us) and you can accept or reject what you choose to believe or use as this is still America and you can have an opinion at least on this board anyway.
Each of us can share what and how we do it, to help each other and if it does not work do not use it and you do not have to try it. However I would appreciate it if you shared if it did or did not work since I took the time to explain it please.
However the one line answers and the answers that describe the swing or aspects of it that go beyond a normal conversation one would have at a ball field seems a little ridiculous also in my opinion and helps no one however it may make the poster appear smarter.
Then comes the test, can you explain it measurable and observable terms and them how could we test to see if it actually worked as to a hitter using the method you describe? More strike outs, less strike outs, more RBI's, more walks, being able to hit to all fields etc.
Pick your hitting guru and their philosophy and start your journey....I did 21 years ago and I am still learning with every kid, parent and coach I work with!
Thanks Howard
In my opinion there are many MLB players who do not fit the MLB pattern either!
If they did they would all be .300 plus hitters. Remember these guys got there because they could hit before they got there and some I may add are better than others and that is termed variation which includes style and mechanics and some get paid more than others.
I have a girl at Ohio University that may not have the MLB Elite Swing Pattern however she has been the offensive player of the year two years in a row and a good part of her education is being paid for and we are still learning. Her Mother who is a high school coach has also won three conference championships in a row, helps at our clinics and works with the little ones in her community and her son who I work with also played in the Frontier League last year and played in the Great Lakes League for three years also and we are still learning!
One MLB veteran and hitting coach who is a friend of mine were talking and he said, "How do you convince a player that is successful that they can improve by changing their grip or how they position their hands or widen or decrease their stance width that is making $20 million a year already?"
So where do you and your daughter fit into the holy grail of seeking the exact blue print of understanding the MLB swing pattern blue print?
Most of your girls can not even throw correctly and we are driving professional hitting mechanics down your throat. Even martial arts has a progress to obtain a black belt so I guess we just skipped a few degrees and belts and decided it would be incumbent to introduce your daughter to the exact style of the MLB Elite Swing Pattern at the young age of 10 to 12 years old.
Maybe we can do it for school also and start at kindergarten and skip to high school because it can't be that hard as everyone should know what the MLB Elite Swing Pattern looks like and be able to teach it! Heck we saw it on video so it must be easy to teach! Just get the hands flat as soon as possible and hit the ball!
If this is so easy to understand and teach why don't all the MLB players hit .300 plus? I am sorry I said that before didn't I?
Then there are the high school coaches who may have played ball in college and have no clue how to teach females because they know nothing about them or how they work!
Do your research on the female ACL issues, over use issues as to pitching and the shoulder injuries.
At our recent clinic there were about 10 girls from the same team sitting on the bleachers and I said it looks like none of you know how to slide correctly (their knees were a mess) or your knees would not be scuffed up. The coach said have you got any suggestions?
I have received several emails from people saying thanks for taking the time to explain in detail what and how you do it however I do not want to admit it works publicly so no one thinks I am not using the MLB Elite Swing Pattern? That is being honest and yet it is sad and funny that they feel so intimidated.
At clinics we also welcome opinions and offer them the bat to demonstrate what they believe is a good, better, best way to do something so everyone understands what we are saying or demonstrating. Tweeks takes the time to post video of what he believes in and Chris posts video's and it all helps someone understand it better for the most part. Then it comes down to trying to teach it in a way the hitter can understand what you think YOU know and all of a sudden it becomes a challenge to the hitter, parent and coaches!
Many of us can inform you what has worked for us from experience ( and that is vastly different for many of us) and you can accept or reject what you choose to believe or use as this is still America and you can have an opinion at least on this board anyway.
Each of us can share what and how we do it, to help each other and if it does not work do not use it and you do not have to try it. However I would appreciate it if you shared if it did or did not work since I took the time to explain it please.
However the one line answers and the answers that describe the swing or aspects of it that go beyond a normal conversation one would have at a ball field seems a little ridiculous also in my opinion and helps no one however it may make the poster appear smarter.
Then comes the test, can you explain it measurable and observable terms and them how could we test to see if it actually worked as to a hitter using the method you describe? More strike outs, less strike outs, more RBI's, more walks, being able to hit to all fields etc.
Pick your hitting guru and their philosophy and start your journey....I did 21 years ago and I am still learning with every kid, parent and coach I work with!
Thanks Howard
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Howard said:
"In my opinion there are many MLB players who do not fit the MLB pattern either!
"If they did they would all be .300 plus hitters. Remember these guys got there because they could hit before they got there and some I may add are better than others and that is termed variation which includes style and mechanics and some get paid more than others."
I disagree. It is hard to stick in MLB without the "high level" (i am not qualified to say "MLB" pattern) pattern. The pattern predominates by natural selection because it is a substantially more effective swing pattern than any alternative pattern for the very specific task of MLB hitting. The law of the jungle.
It is still not all you need, therefore some make it some don't, BUT being substantially in pattern is a nearly universal requirement for MLB power hitting proficiency.
The pattern is much less prevalent in minor leagues, and traditionally it has been said it takes about 5 years in the minors to grasp what changes need to be made by emulation to then master the pattern well enough for MLB consistency.
Can this development be accelerated by teaching/information consistent with this particular type of mother nature's pattern ?
What is the pattern ?
Who is proficent in MLB power hitting and NOT in the pattern ?
Maybe we can pick some supposed out of pattern MLB hitters and look more closely at video.
"In my opinion there are many MLB players who do not fit the MLB pattern either!
"If they did they would all be .300 plus hitters. Remember these guys got there because they could hit before they got there and some I may add are better than others and that is termed variation which includes style and mechanics and some get paid more than others."
I disagree. It is hard to stick in MLB without the "high level" (i am not qualified to say "MLB" pattern) pattern. The pattern predominates by natural selection because it is a substantially more effective swing pattern than any alternative pattern for the very specific task of MLB hitting. The law of the jungle.
It is still not all you need, therefore some make it some don't, BUT being substantially in pattern is a nearly universal requirement for MLB power hitting proficiency.
The pattern is much less prevalent in minor leagues, and traditionally it has been said it takes about 5 years in the minors to grasp what changes need to be made by emulation to then master the pattern well enough for MLB consistency.
Can this development be accelerated by teaching/information consistent with this particular type of mother nature's pattern ?
What is the pattern ?
Who is proficent in MLB power hitting and NOT in the pattern ?
Maybe we can pick some supposed out of pattern MLB hitters and look more closely at video.
Thanks for that paragraph Howard. Has anyone put up a progression list of what elements to work with in what order to provide a progression towards a superior swing? I'd love to see something like that if anyone has a good source.
Thanks everyone for sharing your information. The more I learn the more I find out I don't know.
- Feb 18, 2010
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Good luck Ken!
The last few pages are classic examples of what I was describing to you on pages 1 and 2 of this thread about the general public's experiences when looking for hitting information. Most people don't want to go through all of this stuff to find the pieces of gold hidden within. Some may say that is their own fault as a person (aka not willing to work for what they want) others may say that it is our fault as instructors and coaches for allowing things to get out of hand in this manner. My personal belief is that this type of information should be available to all without all of the hidden references to things about what others teach. I teach what I teach. Hitter teaches what he teaches. Tewks teaches what he teaches. Chris teaches what he teaches. So on and so on, but constant references to the differences in those teachers and why you or I feel what we teach is best based on our results or why we think the other guys teachings are useless based on our personal beliefs do nothing but hinder the information getting out to the masses. Like I said before, the details matter to some extent because there is no agreement on them. I personally feel all of that could be resolved with some open minded direction and release of the personal feelings approach by all involved. I would venture to say though that anyone who studies the things taught by many here and gleans from those things the little nuggets of gold within, stands a better chance with getting their child into a college of some sort with a sports scholarship than those who do not. The truth is that there is no cookie cutter pattern for all players to abide by as there is in the current mass level teachings. I think that is a great thing though, because in my experience as a coach I know that not all kids learn the same way, and what works for one may not work for another. So having a variety of approaches is always the best option IMO. In that variety though there are constants as you mentioned on the macro level, and those constants, along with a way to present them to the masses are what we should be discussing here.
My simple list of those things would include beginning in an athletic stance with most of the weight on the inside of the rear foot, coiling or loading around vs. onto the rear leg, the creation of separation in the initial stride, torque applied to the handle in some manner that provides for getting the hands flat quickly, and rear hip and knee rotation or thrust that results in those two parts beating the barrel to the ball.
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- Oct 12, 2009
- 1,460
- 0
IMO, a big part of the problem is that some things that some people teach (I won't go there in this thread) are the opposite of what I teach. IOW, they are trying to put into people's swings the very things that I am trying to get out of them.
I would argue that my views are based on what video of the best shows, but we all know where that will go.
I hope that at least explains my point of view and motivations.
I would argue that my views are based on what video of the best shows, but we all know where that will go.
I hope that at least explains my point of view and motivations.
Tom said, "Can this development be accelerated by teaching/information consistent with this particular type of mother nature's pattern ?
What is the pattern ?
See the above please!
Who is proficent in MLB power hitting and NOT in the pattern ?
Name them please and what is good, better and best about each hitter?
Maybe we can pick some supposed out of pattern MLB hitters and look more closely at video."
Please share with us exactly how to teach what you see.
Definitions of pattern on the Web:
* form: a perceptual structure; "the composition presents problems for students of musical form"; "a visual pattern must include not only objects ...
* practice: a customary way of operation or behavior; "it is their practice to give annual raises"; "they changed their dietary pattern"
* design: a decorative or artistic work; "the coach had a design on the doors"
* convention: something regarded as a normative example; "the convention of not naming the main character"; "violence is the rule not the exception"; "his formula for impressing visitors"
* a model considered worthy of imitation; "the American constitution has provided a pattern for many republics"
* blueprint: something intended as a guide for making something else; "a blueprint for a house"; "a pattern for a skirt"
* model: plan or create according to a model or models
* traffic pattern: the path that is prescribed for an airplane that is preparing to land at an airport; "the traffic patterns around O'Hare are very crowded"; "they stayed in the pattern until the fog lifted"
* form a pattern; "These sentences pattern like the ones we studied before"
Tom said, "The pattern is much less prevalent in minor leagues, and traditionally it has been said it takes about 5 years in the minors to grasp what changes need to be made by emulation to then master the pattern well enough for MLB consistency."
So there is a progression to get to the MLB Elite Swing Pattern and if they played D1 ball and spent time in the Minor leagues and then it took 5 more years it is safe to say the 10 to 12 year old has no chance of learning it by the time they are 18 or 19 years of age and attend college! WOW!
I need to tell my girls, about 70 at present they should not be playing at the next level as it does not fit the pattern or blue print for an MLB Elire Swing Pattern yet and they should keep working on it!
Tom said, "Can this development be accelerated by teaching/information consistent with this particular type of mother nature's pattern ?"
I can not even imagine you would even reference a woman or a female for anything unless it was the Mother of an MLB player!
Come up with a plan any of these parents and coaches could use in language they would understand as teachers and coaches that teach kids how to hit the ball.
They are looking for a plan or sequence by which to teach them. A progression as I pointed out that they use in martial arts and not just video or a cited article especially about golf....explain how to progress to the next level on the journey to the holy grail of hitting with the MLB ELITE PATTERN! Please!
Bishop this is exactly what is missing and no one wants to say or agree on what works however they support what they teach works.
I can live with what works and the kids are my data points and data walks and BS talks in my opinion!
Thanks Howard
What is the pattern ?
See the above please!
Who is proficent in MLB power hitting and NOT in the pattern ?
Name them please and what is good, better and best about each hitter?
Maybe we can pick some supposed out of pattern MLB hitters and look more closely at video."
Please share with us exactly how to teach what you see.
Definitions of pattern on the Web:
* form: a perceptual structure; "the composition presents problems for students of musical form"; "a visual pattern must include not only objects ...
* practice: a customary way of operation or behavior; "it is their practice to give annual raises"; "they changed their dietary pattern"
* design: a decorative or artistic work; "the coach had a design on the doors"
* convention: something regarded as a normative example; "the convention of not naming the main character"; "violence is the rule not the exception"; "his formula for impressing visitors"
* a model considered worthy of imitation; "the American constitution has provided a pattern for many republics"
* blueprint: something intended as a guide for making something else; "a blueprint for a house"; "a pattern for a skirt"
* model: plan or create according to a model or models
* traffic pattern: the path that is prescribed for an airplane that is preparing to land at an airport; "the traffic patterns around O'Hare are very crowded"; "they stayed in the pattern until the fog lifted"
* form a pattern; "These sentences pattern like the ones we studied before"
Tom said, "The pattern is much less prevalent in minor leagues, and traditionally it has been said it takes about 5 years in the minors to grasp what changes need to be made by emulation to then master the pattern well enough for MLB consistency."
So there is a progression to get to the MLB Elite Swing Pattern and if they played D1 ball and spent time in the Minor leagues and then it took 5 more years it is safe to say the 10 to 12 year old has no chance of learning it by the time they are 18 or 19 years of age and attend college! WOW!
I need to tell my girls, about 70 at present they should not be playing at the next level as it does not fit the pattern or blue print for an MLB Elire Swing Pattern yet and they should keep working on it!
Tom said, "Can this development be accelerated by teaching/information consistent with this particular type of mother nature's pattern ?"
I can not even imagine you would even reference a woman or a female for anything unless it was the Mother of an MLB player!
Come up with a plan any of these parents and coaches could use in language they would understand as teachers and coaches that teach kids how to hit the ball.
They are looking for a plan or sequence by which to teach them. A progression as I pointed out that they use in martial arts and not just video or a cited article especially about golf....explain how to progress to the next level on the journey to the holy grail of hitting with the MLB ELITE PATTERN! Please!
Bishop this is exactly what is missing and no one wants to say or agree on what works however they support what they teach works.
I can live with what works and the kids are my data points and data walks and BS talks in my opinion!
Thanks Howard
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