Understanding the real "enemy"

[ssarge]

And I don't either, Chris, although Tom insists I do because it is convenient for his agenda. I believe strongly in a swing which is essentially a loading cycle followed by an unloading cycle. In one continuous motion, with some overlap. The overlap being what creates separation, obviously.

The devil is in the details, and there is a progression of learning I have found useful on the way to attaining what I would consider ideal. During the progression, the girl typically doesn't look ideal, and isn't ideal. Skipping the progression doesn't work if maintaining competitiveness and results is a factor in the equation. As it is for most female hitters, who often play year-round and need results. And I have found VERY few hitters who respond to the same progression, same drills, same teaching emphasises, or styles of communication. It can be really hard to find the breakthrough. I truly didn;t realize that until I was 100 students or more into my learning curve. But it is true for me. I suspect for you as well?

My point is this - the instructional influence needs hands-on experience. And needs to be getting results with his students (a good percentage are progressing to higher levels). That's not to say a new instructor is a bad decision. It may not be if hard work and personal interest / involvement with the student is part of the equation. But it IS a harder decision.

IMO, there is no decision to be made if the "instructor" doesn't work with kids in person.

I don't know why anyone would work with a piano instructor who summarized the teachings of great piano instructors, and responded to parents with eMails and posts about how Chopin played. Rather than working together, i person, starting with scales and progressing from there. And I don;t see ANY reason why this is different.

Best wishes, Chris. I've been pleased to follow the progress of your students. Talk soon,

Scott

 

[ssarge]

Glad to see you hung in there. You did an excellent job with Sorceror as BM says, BUT I seriously doubt what you teach is compatible with the MLB swing or the HLBB pattern or the variant that Howard teaches.

I teach at the Sorcerer Academy. The team sponsored by the Sorcerer Academy is the current 18Gold National Champions, but that is not the team with which I have been involved as an instructor. That team is the NorCal Shockers, who have reached the National stage, but are not yet a national contender. Best finish in the country so far is T-33. Though I am proud of that, because the program is only 5 years old, and as BM stated, had VERY humble beginnings. No one shows up for our tryouts (the Sorcerers typically have over 100, and should given their amazing accomplishments). We have to recruit / develop ALL of our players - no one comes to us.

Especially if girls do not have a good overhand throw sequence, a gate swing is a big imporvement over disconnection (which really fouls up timing).

It makes no sense to teach the PCR gate swing and say emulate MLB hitters. That just confuses things.

Unless you have revised/progressed from your PCR/Nyman/Englishbey apporach.

Even so, "hybrid attempts" are risky if the patterns are not understood becasue you run into the Oleary "opposites problem", a problem best described and overcome by Hardy's pattern apporach in golf.

Hardy's work is seminal, even if you apply it wrongly to FP. (And you do). But his premise is outstanding.

How about if I just concede the point, Tom? I'll defer to what I consider a ridiculous assessment on your part.

And point instead to results, and dozens of kids on schollies. It is true that not a SINGLE ONE OF THEM will play in MLB. Most will not play beyond college. Although the Sorcerer Academy has had a number play internationally and in NPF. But I am resigned to the fact that none of my hitting students will play in the Majors, and most will have to be content with some / all of their college costs being defrayed.

So this is a fialure, I guess. I'll try to keep plugging though.

All the best.

Thanks, you too.

 

[Cannonball]

I believe we have met the enemy and he is active on this site.

IMO, we have a lot of guys stating that they know and teach the MLB swing. Purely ego at best along with a huge touch of narcissism. You see, they know and teach it and all of us don't. It's that simple. If you don't subscribe to their teachings, then you're not teaching THE MLB SWING. Here's the problem. None of those professing to teach the MLB swing on htis site have every coached a MLB Player. They will tell you that even thought THEIR KIDS have the MLB swing, they still aren't assured of being a MLB Player. Nice way out isn't it! Some active in this thread have not coached since I've been aware of them and that is over a decade and yet, profess to be experts. Interesting isn't it. It reminds me of college where you sit in a classroom and listen to the Professor tell you all of the theory. Then, you get in to the real world and you realize that they were clueless about what really happens when you have to have hands on. I also find it amazing that this thread's top is discovering the real enemy and so, it pertains to softball per this site. However, Tom suggest that none in the softball world know what they are doing and so, your daughter is better off playing baseball until time to "get that scholly." Interesting piece of advice FOR A SOFTBALL WEBSITE. To me, that was also a sexist comment at best. When it boils down to it, anyone who is not in MLB is on an ego trip claiming that they are the truth and the light with regards to THE MLB SWING. I'll settle for not misleading any of my players or parents and tell them we will work on making them better and with a goal of creating a high level swing. I won't worry about those that claim that my sights are set low because they know how to teach the MLB swing. Isn't it interesting that while they attack Ssarge, BM, and Hitter, they themselves never post any of their work, any of their hitters, ... You bet it is interesting. Talking the talk but not walking the walk.

 

[obbay]

Scott- Your posts are always highly informative and many of us appreciate all of them. (when I figure out how to get my videotape working, I'll be sending you video of my DD).
I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but where I live in Massachusetts, there are a lot of hitting coaches of varying backgrounds. I've paid for a few but I hear things that set me off thinking if they do THIS then they aren't going where I want to go. (I listened to one who was telling a team that the palm up/palm down at contact was wrong/weak)

How do you find a good hitting coach where the season doesn't go year round and there are so many different ideas of what is right? (I see the same thing with pitching coaches,too)

 

[ssarge]

Scott- Your posts are always highly informative and many of us appreciate all of them. (when I figure out how to get my videotape working, I'll be sending you video of my DD).
I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but where I live in Massachusetts, there are a lot of hitting coaches of varying backgrounds. I've paid for a few but I hear things that set me off thinking if they do THIS then they aren't going where I want to go. (I listened to one who was telling a team that the palm up/palm down at contact was wrong/weak)

How do you find a good hitting coach where the season doesn't go year round and there are so many different ideas of what is right? (I see the same thing with pitching coaches,too)

Thank you, for the kind words. Finding a coach is a huge problem, for sure. Englishbey travekls the country doing clinics and working with instructors. He may know someone he is confortable recommending in your neck of the woods. I'll ask him. Approximately where in Massachusetts are you?

Appreciate the kind words. More than happy to look at video if you forward it. There is a limited return to that ind of thing - as I have pointed out above. But happy to share some thoughts, and hopefully, to help you get hooked up with an instructor.

Palm-up/down is far from weak, as you know. It is ESSENTIAL to take advantage of the unhinging of the botom hand wrist. Almost a noin-teach, and something that happens automatically - and very beneficially - if the hitter maintains the hinge angle around the corner. Near universal improvement in minutes for most hitters in this regard.

Palm-up/down also precludes a top-hand roll (death), and allows the hitter to mremain on plane longer. All good stuff.

Best,

Scott

 

[tom.guerry]

Oleary asked:

Who teaches a gate swing ? as if it never happens/is a strawman.

As Candrea/Enquist/Slaught point out, the gate swing is alive and well in fastpitch and the way to move out of the pattern has to do with live and independent hands.

If you believe on the other hand the shoulders turn the bat and the hands are along for the ride which are fundamental PCR teachings, this forces a gate swing. Along with the bend over at waist, adjust up/down by bend at waist, rotate around front hip. All those are opposed to/prevent what the HLBB pattern needs.

Maybe Englishbey and Nyman and their followers have abandoned this, but I don;t think so

sarge could enlighten us.

getting into the HLBB pattern requires the early resistance from flat palm hitting that loads the hands and keeps them back and allows the hips to lead the hands,etc.

 

[jofus13]

I agree with Ken, there is an amazing wealth of experience and knowledge on this site (and others), and on this very thread, if you can filter through the manure.

I don't know much, but I do know one thing....there are a few posters here that I would love for my DD to have the opportunity to work with, or even better, to play for (even though I think my DD is in as good a team situation as I can get her in around here, especially for her pitching) , and I thoroughly enjoy reading the posts of those coaches/instructors.

I won't even name names (although I have done so in the past, probably), I figure anyone that wants to take the time to really read can make up their own mind easily enough.

 

[Cannonball]

Scott, I just had a good chuckle at the statement that you'll just have to settle for failure and having some of your kids get athletic rides to college. I hope to become a similar failure.

If I could, and it doesn't relate well to this thread but is important, the St. Louis area has an instructor/coach who is very much aligned with this topic. He has gone out of his way to try to promote changes in softall instruction to the point of working with kids both for fees and for free trying to get them good instruction and in to college. His name is Bob Wilson and he's in real bad shape. He has had a massive stroke. I will be going over tonight to sit with the family. Bob has tried to volunteer to work with so many high school and even college coaches to try to reason through the "old" versus the "new" stuff out there. He has impacted so many lives with his generous work. Please keep him in mind and in your prayers.

Thank you,

Darrell

 

[ssarge]

Darrell:

Thanks for sharing this. I am very sorry to hear about Bob's situation, but he will indeed be in my prayers. I know the legacy he has created with the many he has touched will continue to be felt. Please extend concern and appreciation to his family for me, and please let them know many are praying.

Absolute best regards,

Scott

 

[ssarge]

If you believe on the other hand the shoulders turn the bat and the hands are along for the ride which are fundamental PCR teachings, this forces a gate swing.

I have NEVER said the hands are along for the ride. I HAVE said that the hands do nothing to materially contribute to bat speed. And I will renew this point. Along with Adair (Physics of Baseball), among others.

I have also said that the hands can do nothing without using the muscles in the arms. And ultimately the shoulders. This of course is not a revelation - it is anatomical fact.

As always, most arguments come down to 1) agenda; and 2) "cues vs. reality." My antagonist in this thread definitely has an agenda. And he is very advisedly using cues to describe reality.

Which is fine, as long as one knows the difference between cues and reality. He PROBABLY does, but agenda raises its head.


I do seriously believe that a very large percentage of the arguments on sites like this - the arguments beyond agenda - come down to one guy talking about cues, and another guy talking about physical realitry. Both are legitimate topics of conversation, both have their place.

Personally, I tend to focus more on physical and anatmoical reality - to the extent that I understand them - when posting.

My reasoning is that anyone understanding those things can develop his own cues. And needs to, as the same cues definitely don't work for every hitter.

I DO NOT talkk about physical and anatomical reality much when working with hitters. In that setting, I do focus almost entirely on finding the right cues that enable the individual hitter to attain the reality we're seeking. And, as stated, those cues vary by student. They sometimes vary with the same student from day-to-day.


The exercise of comparing hitting camps and talking about patterns and comparing the patterns of hitting camps, and looking at someone's hitter and finding one joint out of place and dismissing her as a failure or as subscribing to the wrong pattern is best left for others. I don't care, and I'm not interested.

I think it is absolutely valid - crucial even - to use the general mechanics of the world's best hitters (MLB) as a basis for instruction. In the sense of getting a good postuire, getting on plane, staying connected, developing momentum, rotating forcefully, causing the hips to engage first with the shoulders and hands staying (back) in order to create whip. Those are the principles of the elite swing to which I subscribe. They are principles consistent to most elite hitters, male and female. What Pujols does with his left knee during some 0.02 second period of the swing (for example) is lost on me. Could not possibly care less. The big principles of the swing are fairly obvious, and FAIRLY readily adaptable for most hitters. The rest is frankly arguable, and under any circumstances, best learned by trial-and-error. Ideally, well-supervised trial-and-error, in order to shorten the learning curve. I don't claim mine is the perfect approach, but I am relatively pleased with the results to date (I do wish I could go back in time and work with some "early adopters" again - I have some regrets, there.)

So, the above is my process, individualized to each hitter. Much of the rest is basically "how many angels on the head of a pin" to me, frankly. Even at that - for those who find value in such discussion - I'd listen to someone who has actually worked with angels on the head of the pin. Not someone merely aggregating material and theorizing how others work with angels on the head of the pin..

Best regards,

Scott