Umpiring Question

[EdLovrich]

@CoachJD I get what you are saying, but gdc, I THINK was talking about showing a video during the same game. Even if it weren't against the rules, if it isn't obvious enough for me to have seen it in the 1st inning, I am not sure that showing me a still frame or a slo-mo capture of a play is going to get me to call something any different DURING THAT SAME GAME. First, I would need to evaluate my mechanics, it might be that the angle you are seeing it from is just not the same one I can get calling the game the way I should be. Second, didn't we just have several discussions about consistency? Yes, they were about the strike zone, but I would presume that everyone would want an umpire to be consistent in ALL calls within any particular game, if if that strike zone or judgement is horse#*&@, at least is stinks for both teams equally. Get me the video evidence between games or even better on an off day when I can evaluate it, my mechanics and what I can to do remedy any deficiencies, but don't ask Me to change they way I umpire in the middle of a game.

 

[RedeemerKing]

As an umpire of many decades, I will try to reassure you that being offended was the last thing on the umpires mind, especially if you approached him/her discreetly and politely between innings. My first question, in much the same vein, is,v"Why would someone have that as their gut instinct, unless they themselves would be offended by the remark?"

Do we really think that little of the people who give up their family time, their relaxing time, to help our DDs (and DSs in other sports) improve their leisure time, learn leadership and team-building skills, to become better citizens and people in general, all the while enduring the ridicule of loud-mouthed, boorish, non-rule knowing parents and coaches (you know, the ones who AREN'T members of DFP), for little pay when compared to the costs and time involved.

If you truly think the umpire was offended, then perhaps you realized that what you said and/or how you said it was offensive. Either that or you think very little of your fellow man, "Redeemer King"

His instant retort that he was watching it was clearly dismissive.

To flip the coin—if an umpire discreetly approached me between innings about something one of my girls was doing which he felt was a violation, I’d have 100% thanked him agreed to look at it.

perhaps something like—“I’m not seeing that but I’ll definitely take a deeper look”.

I wouldn’t simply say, “I’m watching her—she’s not doing that” without a closer look. Even when I think I am not missing anything, the reality is that with 100 other things going on I may be.

not painting all umps with a single brush. Many are great folks who are there for the kids and take the responsibility seriously—probably the majority. Had one of those today—chatted up the girls, super upbeat.

Others are bitter—possibly from years of dealing with BS—but nonetheless clearly there to do the least amount of work possible to get paid.

I guess what I was looking for by posting was how, as a coach, to best handle a situation where an umpire is either missing or refusing to call a rules infraction. Sounds like politely mentioning it and hoping for the best is about all you can do.

 

[EdLovrich]

To flip the coin—if an umpire discreetly approached me between innings about something one of my girls was doing which he felt was a violation, I’d have 100% thanked him agreed to look at it.

perhaps something like—“I’m not seeing that but I’ll definitely take a deeper look”.

I wouldn’t simply say, “I’m watching her—she’s not doing that” without a closer look. Even when I think I am not missing anything, the reality is that with 100 other things going on I may be.

If the umpire comes to you about a violation that he let go without calling it (I presume because it is borderline and MIGHT become a violation if it gets worse), he is doing you a favor and giving you the chance to fix it. This is different than a coach calling out something that they see from a different angle/frame of reference.

You are not doing the umpire a favor, you are asking for special consideration. I can only address this from my perspective, but if I do not call something it is because I either cannot see it or I am not 100% sure it is a violation. Trust me, if I suspect it is close, I am watching for it. I am also mentioning it to the HC or possibly the C if it is something the P is doing. This is in the gray area between preventive umpiring and coaching, but I would rather not make a controversial call if the situation can be avoided. Once I see see something 100%, it is geting called and then I will have the talk with the player/HC about what I saw. If an umpire comes to you and says 'Talk to your player about leaving early/keeping her drag foot down/whatever" it means it is on his radar and getting close to being called, he just isn't 100% sure it is happening.

//RANT ON// As for doing the least amount of work possible to get paid. Sure, I call the fewest number of pitches I can by getting as many of them right as possible. I call the fewest number of outs I can by being in the right place to see them when they occur. If you are saying umpires are going out and being lazy just to collect a check, I take offense at that, not only for myself but for everyone who 'straps it on' so that the girls can play the game. For anyone to say what an umpire 'clearly' is thinking or doing is hubris of the worst sort. I would suggest that anyone who takes this attitude check themselves in the mirror and make sure they aren't the ones with a bias or ulterior motive. //RANT OFF//

Are there bad umpires? Yes. Are there umpires who could use a refresher of the current rules and mechanics? Yes. Are there umpires who go out day after day intending to be lazy and 'just collect a check'? If there are, then perhaps ask this question, "Who is writing that check and paying these people?" And more importantly, "What can I do to prevent it from happening?" The answer to that is simple, become an umpire or help to find those who will.

 

[EdLovrich]

Others are bitter—possibly from years of dealing with BS

Hrmm, like years of dealing with coaches breaking the rules by bringing video evidence to them during the game, or ascribing motives to them that are purely supposition, like an answer was dismissive rather than succinct and factual (e.g. “I’ve been watching it, no one is leaving early”.)

I wasn't there. I don't know if the runners were in fact leaving early or not, I do not know the different angles involved. But, you had your say, you asked the umpire about a situation and you got an answer. That should have been the end of it until after the game. THAT would have been the time to have a discussion about any video, most constructively with a UIC/TD/assigner. But even then. present the facts and not the opinions. They are more than likely colored by bias, not saying that is a terrible thing, I would hope you ARE biased. You SHOULD BE biased, just realize it when you have the conversation and stay away from opinions and ascribing motives to others.

 

[RedeemerKing]

Hrmm, like years of dealing with coaches breaking the rules by bringing video evidence to them during the game, or ascribing motives to them that are purely supposition, like an answer was dismissive rather than succinct and factual (e.g. “I’ve been watching it, no one is leaving early”.)

I wasn't there. I don't know if the runners were in fact leaving early or not, I do not know the different angles involved. But, you had your say, you asked the umpire about a situation and you got an answer. That should have been the end of it until after the game. THAT would have been the time to have a discussion about any video, most constructively with a UIC/TD/assigner. But even then. present the facts and not the opinions. They are more than likely colored by bias, not saying that is a terrible thing, I would hope you ARE biased. You SHOULD BE biased, just realize it when you have the conversation and stay away from opinions and ascribing motives to others.

TY for the feedback!

 

[inumpire]

OK, so this is exactly the kind of attitude that should prevent someone from being allowed to ever umpire another game at any level. While I agree that someone should not show you a video, your reason "b" is a huge problem. You just admitted that you're not willing to look at evidence and change how you do your job. We're talking about evidence that clearly shows you are wrong, but you don't care? Because you are above video evidence? For real? So if you watched a video and the runner was 10 feet off the base every single time, you wouldn't think "Hey, maybe I'm not looking at this the right way?"

If you weren't calling it a certain way in the first inning and you're proven to be without a doubt wrong, you should probably adjust how you call things in the 5th.

Would you like it if I came to your job and took video of all your mistakes and went to your boss with them? You are completely out of line with bringing the pictures out to the umpire. He should have ran your rear all the way to the parking lot.

Maybe he didn’t call them leaving early because he would have had to deal with coaches like you,

 

[EdLovrich]

Maybe he didn’t call them leaving early because he would have had to deal with coaches like you,

This is no reason for an umpire to make or not make a call. Any umpire who does it needs to be talked to by others in the profession (and yes, we are professionals, we get paid to do a job, we need to act like it and also need to be treated like it). Any coach that thinks we are out to get them personally by making or not making calls needs to realize they just aren't that important to us, and if we REALLY don't want to deal with you, we have a very effective tool that won't punish the players the way making wrong/non calls would.

 

[marriard]

OK, so this is exactly the kind of attitude that should prevent someone from being allowed to ever umpire another game at any level. While I agree that someone should not show you a video, your reason "b" is a huge problem. You just admitted that you're not willing to look at evidence and change how you do your job. We're talking about evidence that clearly shows you are wrong, but you don't care? Because you are above video evidence? For real? So if you watched a video and the runner was 10 feet off the base every single time, you wouldn't think "Hey, maybe I'm not looking at this the right way?"

If you weren't calling it a certain way in the first inning and you're proven to be without a doubt wrong, you should probably adjust how you call things in the 5th.

Not looking to make excuses for bad umpiring or poor umpires or umpires doing it for the 'wrong' reasons or those that don't try. But I will try to give you a view into the general mindset of most good umpires I know across the last 35 years across multiple sports, some of the reasoning for how umpiring works, and some other things. This is more a series of thoughts than an answer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As has been stated in this thread; as an umpire, you are not allowed to watch video of calls or use video to review calls, etc, etc, DURING A GAME. It is not that I am 'above it' - it is flat out not allowed. Why - because there would be a constant stream of people coming out every inning showing umpires every piece of footage they have to show that I have got something wrong. And most of them will probably not do it politely. Or get it right. Or get the rule right. Or...

It is great that you think as a coach that you would only do it for some gross mistake - but we all know coaches who would come out with video frames of where they paused the ball on a strike call or every single close play or fractional leaving earlies or whatever else they think they could get themselves an advantage on a call or whatever. 99.9% of the time it would be some coach coming out looking for an advantage or just to complain I missed some call and look at this video of you doing it even though there was nothing I could do about it anyway.

It is why replay is limited when it is available in NCAA and in other sports - it is very controlled and very process and time driven by neutral people and systems. And yes I have done games with replay in at least 3 sports and as an umpire I 100% support it for sensible situations.

Add to this - when you are part of a team you have an automatic bias towards thinking the call went against you - that is just human - me included. None of this an ego thing for the umpire (well most of them anyway). All good (and some bad) umpires have a bias towards believing you got it right - you have to - I can't be doubting myself every call. You can't survive that way - you will get eaten alive.

That is why you heard a MLB umpire this week after the game say he absolutely believes he got that obstruction call right - even though it is a horrible call. I suspect he had not had time to really sit down and watch it when he commented. I guarantee he doesn't think that way now and it will stick with him for a long time. I have 10-12 calls I have made over the years that make me cringe whenever I think about them - one of them is from 25 years ago. Wow, I TOTALLY blew that one... (Thanks for making me think of it...)

At higher levels - and if you are serious about umpiring - you will review situations from your games after the day is over or between games - that is an appropriate time to do so. I look up calls and rules often to make sure I got it right. I review mechanics when something weird happens and I felt out of position. I will even watch video online if I want to see something even though I am really sick of seeing my backside. There is a weird thing - there are 1000's of hours of video online of me taken from behind while I am bending down.

At the higher levels I am regularly reviewed by an umpire assessor - as recently as last week for that matter. 6 pages of notes, and comments and running through 'what was I thinking when you did this, 'why did you do this, 'who had the tag up when the fly ball went to LF', etc, etc).

I am very approachable on the field - but coaches regularly make it harder for me to call things. Discreetly normally works OK if you are polite - I will usually respond something along the lines of "OK" (which is noncommittal)when asked to look for something. Many coaches do it loudly "Look for X" which now makes it almost impossible to call because the opposition will automatically believe I was influenced/talked into a call by the other team. That always sucks - if you think making my job harder makes me happy, you would be very wrong..

You also don't want to be the 'gotcha' umpire - the one that can't wait to call some technicality of the rule without reason.

I will add for 'leaving early' is one of those tough calls to make in 2-man umpiring. I REALLY have to be sure and frankly, I am not in a great position to do so with a runner on 1st base; I am looking at 6-8 different things as the field umpire... the pitcher, the pitch, when the pitch is released, the runner (which is more peripheral than direct), and then swing/no swing, dead ball double contacts plus maybe being on the move to cover on for a steal... That is a LOT to watch and process - and with two umpires, something has to give. For example - on bases-loaded I HAVE to prioritize on the most likely (i.e. the runner on 3rd). If I see a runner pushing the limits, I am going to watch more carefully. No different than slappers out of the box - if I see that they swing and miss and their path took them out of the box I am going to watch it more closely, but in doing that I am taking the focus off something else. That sort of prioritization, focus and decision making is built through experience (and training sometimes).

Watch where an umpire is is with a runner on 1st base only (in 'B' position) - I am REALLY positioned best for the most likely calls I will be asked to make; tag play on a steal of second, pickoff at first, out at first on a batted ball. I do not have the best view for leaving early - the runner is mostly in my peripheral vision and is not lined up directly with the pitch release. It is a compromise position that is influenced by the most likely call they will be asked to make.

Now compare to 3 umpire positioning or as they do in MLB 4 umpires. More umpires reduces all the things each umpire has to look at every play. Now there is ALWAYS one umpire for a runner or a base, so then they can concentrate on that runner and base and the plays that will be made there. Look how they are positioned with a runner just on first. The umpire at 1B doesn't have steal responsibilities at 2nd so he is positioned much better for a pickoff or leaving early and the runner is between them and the pitcher so I can easily see the release of the pitch and the runner at the same time.

More umpires also mean you don't have to look after a runner at third base AND also call the runner out at 1st which is a regular call you have to make in every 2 umpire game (yay, I am calling a bang-bang play from further away than the coaches/crowd). No one wants to pay for 3 umpires or 4 - and that is fine for 98%+ of easy calls and probably 90%+ or so of harder calls which is more than fine for the majority of games. 2 umpires is just fine - adding umpires is a diminishing return for the cost - even MLB doesn't go to 6 umpires until playoffs.