the rise up two seams vs four seams

[starsnuffer]

While it can be argued that a 4 seam rotation may or may not have an advantage over a 2 seam rotation, I've never heard anyone argue that a 2 seam rotation is better then a 4 seam rotation.

Given that, I would suggest finding a comfortable grip to get a 4 seam rotation and err on the side of caution.

To put it bluntly, there is no evidence in existence suggesting an advantage to a 2 seam rotation, so why waste time with it?

-W

 

[aleados]

i found a video on youtube..pitcher Kim Watson demonstrates how to throw strike out the competition with her signature rise ball. shes using two seams..she pitches at a good level.. why is she using only two seams knowing is better the four seams?..im not saying am in favor of two seams ..ok??

gracias !! here is the video
YouTube - Aggie Academy - Rise Ball

 

[CoachFP]

Aleados, the sad thing is, she probably doesn't know why she is throwing it with two seams. Just like she stops her arm at the point of release as opposed to smoothly snapping the ball, she probably doesn't know why she does that either. I understand the Magnus Effect so I can't understand why people can't intuitively see why four seams cutting the air isn't better than two. In baseball, why do they make the distinction between a two seamer and a four seamer fastball? The seams help it do different things.

 

[Hillhouse]

While I fully support throwing 4 seams any time possible for more break, the other reason is for deception. It's much more difficult to see the direction of the ball's rotation when using 4 seams as opposed to 2. Two seams is a much "looser" rotation. Personally I don't even think it's debatable about which moves more 2 seams or 4 seams, but I do know of some people (Redhawk being one) who disagree. But consider that if a hitter does not have a pitcher "picked" to know what pitch is coming ahead of time, the next thing they are trying for to hit the ball is to see the rotation out of the pitcher's hand. 2 seams is much easier to see than 4.

 

[Hillhouse]

I just watched the video that Aleados posted... I can tell you based on the information she just said and what I just saw..... there is no possible way she's got backspin on that ball. My guess would be bullet spin at best.

 

[sluggers]

Guess what? The physicists say that everyone is right.

The "two seam" vs. "four seam" has been studied quite a bit for baseballs. The results: As the spin on the ball increases, the effect of the seam orientation of the spin on the Magnus force decreases. That is, at low spin rates, a four seam spin creates significantly more force than a two seam spin. However, as the spin rate increases, the differences between a four seam spin and a two seam spin becomes insignificant.

"Aerodynamics of the curve-ball: An investigation of the effects of angular velocity on baseball trajectories", Leroy Ward Alaways, PHD Dissertation; "Sports Ball Aerodynamics: Effects of Velocity, Spin and Surface Roughness", Rabindra D. Mehta and Jani Macari Pallis.

It seems likely that young pitchers will experience much more success with a four seam spin. However, as the pitcher improves and her spin rate improves, the importance of the seam orientation becomes insignificant.

 

[Hillhouse]

I want to add that women (years ago) had smaller hands, much smaller than men. So the 2-seam came in because we just could not spread the middle two fingers across the four-seam orientation.

Think Joan Joyce.

Just as girls and many women often use more fingers on the ball than men do.

Screwball... there are men (and boys) with small hands too. So it sounds like you're falling into the trap of thinking there's only 1 grip for a riseball. Not so, when hands are smaller the finger placement needs to be adjusted. The spin is what's important, not the grip. While I believe some grips are more advantageous than others, a pitcher has to do what they can based on hand size. I think there are grips that people with small hands can use and still get 4 seams spinning.

Even if Sluggers is right (not doubting you, just saying for argument sake) about rotation speed and the 2/4 seam pitch, this still does not address the batter's sight of the rotation.

I know I'm bullheaded but it just doesn't seem logical to me that with more/faster rotation, 2 seams would be as effective as 4 seams. Maybe I'm just not understanding but, I really don't get why anyone would want 2 seams instead of 4.

Bill

 

[redhawkridge]

Bill H:
I didn't say in either of my posts that a 2-seam works better than a 4-seam. I did say that I didn't believe that 4-seam grip or high seams are all that important to throw an effective rise. I don't discount the likelihood that for some pitchers (hand-size, delivery characteristics, etc.) the 4-seamer and high seams allow them to apply a better spin (angle, rpm, etc). But I don't buy the argument that either provide an inherent advantage. When I was pitching, my biggest preference in balls was one with a surface that was matte or spongy, rather than hard and shiny -- I liked the "grippability" for my smallish hands.
R Pauly:
No real issue with your ranking of factors, but explain to me this: Why don't 4-seam fastballs thrown by baseball pitchers at 90-100 mph experience a greater degree of climb than softball pitchers? An overhand delivery puts significant reverse spin on the baseball.
JimP

 

[Hillhouse]

Redhawk, ok. Sorry if I misquoted you. I do respectfully disagree however that 4 seams do not make for an advantage.

Bill

 

[sluggers]

Why don't 4-seam fastballs thrown by baseball pitchers at 90-100 mph experience a greater degree of climb than softball pitchers?

For most baseball pitchers, the problem is getting 6-12 spin on the ball. Most pitchers don't come directly over their shoulder, so the spin axis for a fastball is tilted. And, as we all know, the spin axis is the single most important factor in getting a riseball to move.

The lift that can be generate by a baseball pitcher is more (proportionally) than for a softball. A baseball pitcher generally throws faster and with greater spin on the ball than softball pitchers. In fact, watch the last few innings of Game 1 of the 1968 World Series when Bob Gibson set a world series record for strikeouts. You will see the Tiger batters consistently swinging two to three inches under the ball.



They have studied whether you can get a baseball to actually "rise" above the release angle and the answer is still "no, it doesn't".