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[FiveFrameSwing]

But to say that there is a "swing launch", and then that somewhere down the line after that there is another loading process, and "barrel launch" is just hitting terminology hocus-pocus to backpedal oneself out of a theory that makes no sense to those who've been reading, learning, and following the hitting theories of the great(s) for long, long time. JMHO obviously...OMMV.

I think where the confusion is ... at least my interpretation of the confusion ... is on the definition of 'loading', 'what' is being loaded, and 'when' the loading is taking place.

There is also confusion that what 1CA termed as a 'launch' ... which was a 'barrel launch' ... is a 'release'. And yes, there is a 'loading' prior to this 'release' ... which would seem to agree with your definition of 'loading' taking place prior to a 'launch' ... and hence I think you especially could understand it as a 'launch' ... in any event I can understand why some might refer to it as a 'launch'.

 

[FP26]

I hate to do this, but I'm going to have to ask you to find another term other than my forums registered trademark "mud". It's recent usage(s) is/are bordering on slander, and libel...and I'd hate to have to get my lawyers involved. You seem like a very nice person, and I don't want to sound like a bully, but enough is enough already!!

I kid, I kid!!! For those who don't know it...FP26, and I go back a long way now at these forums, and I've always admired his levelheadedness, calm demeanor, and knowledge of hitting, and just the game in general. If it were anyone else who wrote that (OK, maybe a couple others might have gotten it also ) I wouldn't have joked like that...but be he knows (or should know) it's all in fun, good humor, and that I respect his thoughts, advice, opinion, and instruction greatly. =)

Lol!! My bad Mud. Never crossed my mind...

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Very nice... I see it as a twitch as well. Being reactionary is extremely important. Good stuff Five.

That 'twitch' ... i.e., the beginning action of 'launching the swing' ... the beginning of the 'torso/hip-engine' ... was a big thing to Doc Yeager. He would literally yell at his hitters if they didn't perform that 'twitch' on every pitch, regardless of whether or not the ball was a strike or not. He wanted all of his hitters to 'twitch' on every pitch.

 

[_MIA_]

Lol!! My bad Mud. Never crossed my mind...

Bull, that was on purpose. Make DFP great again (like BBD)!!

 

[Work=wins]

Regarding the bold portion ... I do something similar ... but the timing is with the torso (preparing to pull) and the check swing is performed with the start of the torso-engine ... which I want eventually felt as a 'twitch' ... I want my hitters to 'twitch at the ball' ... the notion is to work on being reactionary.

Would your torso timing be in conjunction with Hosmers timing of his separation?

https://youtu.be/79MkT9f4b90

 

[Mudders Brudder]

Not IMO ... step one is the torso-engine ... step two would be the hands. Then a hitter can feel how the barrel action induced by the hands/forearms resists the forward pulling movement of the torso/hip-engine.

I tend to agree with this as well, and what I was referring to when I wrote this earlier...

Well it's no secret that I'm "barrel centric" (really rear hip centric, but that's for another topic)...

However that said, I think they run a very close 1-2 in instruction. In that depending on how it's taught, I think one can really help or somewhat force the other into action.

IOWs, it becomes quite difficult to not get the hips ahead of the hands ("hips then hands" as you'll hear me say) if you learn to TTB correctly. Just as I believe it's rather difficult to not TTB if you learn to get the lower half out ahead of the upper half properly.

That said, while Butter's and my instructional focus might be slightly different, we've had enough (sometimes heated) discussions over the years that I believe our hitting beliefs, concepts, or philosophies are now so similar...that even though we may teach them a little differently, I've seen the results he gets with his methods, and wouldn't hesitate for a second to send my hitters over to him anytime for a brush up, or additional training if need be.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Would your torso timing be in conjunction with Hosmers timing of his separation?

https://youtu.be/79MkT9f4b90

Yes. IMO Hosmer has this notion correct.



Often we have described timing as going forward as the pitcher releases the ball ... but IMO it is more accurate to time the ball with 'separation' ... or the preparation to have the torso pull.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

Help me understand your perspective a bit more.

What exactly is being 'loaded' prior to 'swing launch'?

I'm completely serious. A common issue I run into with young hitters is a faulty pre-load prior to 'swing launch'.

I use that as just an all inclusive term that "loads" the body to its maximum "stretch" at what Hudgens (that I continue to us as well) calls the "Position of Power" ("PoP" for short). It's basically the furtherest most "stretched" position a player gets him/herself into just prior to "swing launch"...when s/he "unloads" everything into the ball.

I personally teach more of a 'relaxed/low-tension' type preparation to swing. Sure ... the rear leg is 'loaded' ... but not the 'arms', etc ... and that is where a lot of young kids get into trouble and develop habits that are difficult for them to break. To me it is completely understandable how loading takes place 'at' and 'just after' 'swing launch' ... as a result of 'swing launch'.

I am open to a better understanding.

This goes back to my thoughts that something has to be "loaded" before it's "launched"...and my continual confusion on how something can get "loaded" after it's already been "fired" if that makes more sense than "launched".

 

[Mudders Brudder]

I think where the confusion is ... at least my interpretation of the confusion ... is on the definition of 'loading', 'what' is being loaded, and 'when' the loading is taking place.

There is also confusion that what 1CA termed as a 'launch' ... which was a 'barrel launch' ... is a 'release'. And yes, there is a 'loading' prior to this 'release' ... which would seem to agree with your definition of 'loading' taking place prior to a 'launch' ... and hence I think you especially could understand it as a 'launch' ... in any event I can understand why some might refer to it as a 'launch'.

Personally, I think a lot of this stems from sitting behind a computer screen watching super slo-mo clips, and developing a theory off of those vs. actually doing/developing them in a game or cage somewhere.

This is not the first (or probably the last) time this has happened. If you remember years ago on another site someone did the same, and tried to tell everyone that the "lag" position was a checkpoint and/or teachable event. When we all know/knew that it is just an "effect" of the "causes" of things taking place much further upstream. I see this new "loading" of the barrel after it or the swing has already been launched to be the exact same kind of slo-mo theory creation. JMHO again...

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I use that as just an all inclusive term that "loads" the body to its maximum "stretch" at what Hudgens (that I continue to us as well) calls the "Position of Power" ("PoP" for short). It's basically the furtherest most "stretched" position a player gets him/herself into just prior to "swing launch"...when s/he "unloads" everything into the ball.

This goes back to my thoughts that something has to be "loaded" before it's "launched"...and my continual confusion on how something can get "loaded" after it's already been "fired" if that makes more sense than "launched".

Excellent post MB. If I understand you correctly the 'load' prior to 'swing launch' is a stretch along the torso. I can respect that. I wouldn't refer to it as a maximum 'stretch' ... more I describe it as a mini stretch ... I want the maximum stretch to occur as a result of swing launch ... and I want looseness to 'fire/twitch' quickly. I care about the speed of that twitch, and hence the focus on looseness.

Let me attempt to describe things and see if you might respect 1CA's perspective ... or one person's feel that relate's to 1CA's description.

While the ball is in flight I am not trying to ‘load’ my upper body. Instead I am preparing my torso to pull. That ‘preparation to pull’ is what Hosmer refers to as ‘separation’ … what some folks refer to as ‘walking away from the hands’.

To me, the ‘feel’ of the torso ‘preparing to pull’ is more of a ‘hollow’ feel than a ‘loading’ feel. It is a feel of looseness … of a lack of a high tension muscling. It is not a feel of ‘loading up the arms’, but a feel of having the torso prepared to pull … it feels like a semi-low-tension state to what quickly becomes defined structure (loaded) once the torso/hip-engine begins to pull … twitch … a spiral torso twitch.

So rather than ‘load’ … to me it is a feel of low-tension.

Swing launch to me is more of a twitch (torso-hip/engine), along with the act of having ‘short-hands’ (described earlier), which causes structure and loading.

That loading is ‘released’ into and through impact … and from the perspective that a ‘load’ needs to occur prior to a ‘launch’, then this ‘release’ could be referred to as a ‘launch’.

I am not trying to convince people one-way or the other. I am saying that when 1CA began speaking in this manner that I immediately was able to comprehend his perspective. To me 1CA’s description had a feel of someone that was paying close attention to their swing … it had a feel based description to me.