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[Mudders Brudder]

Excellent post MB. If I understand you correctly the 'load' prior to 'swing launch' is a stretch along the torso. I can respect that. I wouldn't refer to it as a maximum 'stretch' ... more I describe it as a mini stretch ... I want the maximum stretch to occur as a result of swing launch ... and I want looseness to 'fire/twitch' quickly. I care about the speed of that twitch, and hence the focus on looseness.

I think it should be determined/stated if we're talking about simply theory, or what's teachable or not.

That said, wrt "stretch along the torso", it all depends on what you mean by "torso", and why I simply use "body" instead. Yes, there is a "stretch along the torso", but I know others who say/believe that stretch works its way down to the inner thigh, and I agree that also happens with some hitters (remember there are numerous "styles" in play here as well).

So for me I don't try to just limit it to the torso when teaching, although I will point out to my hitters that they should be feeling the stretch along their rear "torso", and down into their rear hip socket...which one might define as part of the torso also, and I'm OK with that as well, I just separate them because with my "hip-centric" teaching I like them to have a true definition of what the "hip" (acetabulum, and femoral head) are all about.

Wrt "mini" or "maximum" stretches...again, I don't teach "results" or "effects"...so while I have no qualm that the stretch might increase as a "result of swing launch"...I can only teach my hitters to get as much or their "maximum" stretch that's the "cause" leading to the, shall we say, "additional" stretch that happens after they've launched the swing, and can't consciously control or increase on their own with some other intentional or deliberate movement(s).

While the ball is in flight I am not trying to ‘load’ my upper body. Instead I am preparing my torso to pull. That ‘preparation to pull’ is what Hosmer refers to as ‘separation’ … what some folks refer to as ‘walking away from the hands’.

Doesn't Kent in the above example "walk away from his hands" in essence? Yet he's still "separating/stretching" at the same time, no? I may sound like a broken record but in these kinds of conversations, I think "theory", and actual teaching get jumbled together to make more of a mess of things helping folks learn to teach their kids who to swing a bat.

To me, the ‘feel’ of the torso ‘preparing to pull’ is more of a ‘hollow’ feel than a ‘loading’ feel. It is a feel of looseness … of a lack of a high tension muscling. It is not a feel of ‘loading up the arms’, but a feel of having the torso prepared to pull … it feels like a semi-low-tension state to what quickly becomes defined structure (loaded) once the torso/hip-engine begins to pull … twitch … a spiral torso twitch.

So rather than ‘load’ … to me it is a feel of low-tension.

No offense, but I'm getting more of a mumbo-jumbo of words trying to discuss some minutia "feel" than what we're actually going to be teaching our players. Well I hate to introduce another internet hitting term, but I think understanding the idea of "late load" or now I'm making up one, "late stretch" would better explain what I'm talking about, and not that I'm saying a player gets to some maximum stretch, and attempts to hold it for some extended period of time...which yes, then I could see how the "looseness" would be negated from their swing.

All I'm talking about is just one more of the many timing elements that go into hitting a baseball/softball, and the "loose" flow that one needs throughout it to do it effectively...and what we can, and cannot teach players in order to accomplish it.

Swing launch to me is more of a twitch (torso-hip/engine), along with the act of having ‘short-hands’ (described earlier), which causes structure and loading.

Once more, I think we're in the hitting terms Twilight Zone when we start redefining what it is to "launch" your swing. Ask any hitter young, old, experienced, or not what "swing launch" is, and w/o a doubt I'm going to say they're all going to respond with, "when I start swinging the bat". None are going to start talking about "twitching", "short-hands", or any of the other terms made up at these hitting forums...IMO.

That loading is ‘released’ into and through impact … and from the perspective that a ‘load’ needs to occur prior to a ‘launch’, then this ‘release’ could be referred to as a ‘launch’.

Let me just ask you this. Once a player starts swinging the bat (heck with "launch" defining anymore)...can you tell him/her to not load it, or decrease it's loading w/o them simply trying to stop their swing? I don't believe they can, and that a "check swing" is not a player attempting to stop or decrease his/her "loading" but rather them just trying to stop the swing (unloading process) that they've already begun.

I am not trying to convince people one-way or the other. I am saying that when 1CA began speaking in this manner that I immediately was able to comprehend his perspective. To me 1CA’s description had a feel of someone that was paying close attention to their swing … it had a feel based description to me.

I'm not either, I'm just sharing information, and let it fall where it may.

But what I am in disagreement with, is taking super slo-mo video, and trying to reinvent the wheel pretending it's been square for all these years, and that someone has just figured out how to round it out. As they say, "There's many ways to skin a cat", but all I'm getting at, is don't hold up a snake that's been skinned, and try to tell me it's a new, and better way to skin that poor old cat.

 

[FP26]

Well I hate to introduce another internet hitting term, but I think understanding the idea of "late load" or now I'm making up one, "late stretch" would better explain what I'm talking about, and not that I'm saying a player gets to some maximum stretch, and attempts to hold it for some extended period of time...which yes, then I could see how the "looseness" would be negated from their swing.

All I'm talking about is just one more of the many timing elements that go into hitting a baseball/softball, and the "loose" flow that one needs throughout it to do it effectively...and what we can, and cannot teach players in order to accomplish it.

This is an important concept in my opinion. The reason I like the term 'dynamic' so much is because I really don't think a hitter can be successful by being 'static'. I don't want to stretch and then hold that stretch. I want to adjust my stretch dynamically so that I am ready to 'launch' (I really don't like that term...) when the time is right. Essentially that is what I think Hosmer is talking about in that video.

 

[_MIA_]

This is an important concept in my opinion. The reason I like the term 'dynamic' so much is because I really don't think a hitter can be successful by being 'static'. I don't want to stretch and then hold that stretch. I want to adjust my stretch dynamically so that I am ready to 'launch' (I really don't like that term...) when the time is right. Essentially that is what I think Hosmer is talking about in that video.

To be highly non-technical, there is an underlying "rhythm" to hitting, which when you are hitting well, feels wonderful. It is the pitcher's job to get you out of it.

Ok, back to the regularly scheduled PhD course in hitting

 

[FP26]

To be highly non-technical, there is an underlying "rhythm" to hitting, which when you are hitting well, feels wonderful. It is the pitcher's job to get you out of it.

Ok, back to the regularly scheduled PhD course in hitting

Lol! I was hoping you would throw down some of your knowledge. I love the physics stuff.

 

[_MIA_]

Lol! I was hoping you would throw down some of your knowledge. I love the physics stuff.

Nah, dude. Labor day, no school today!!

Edit: Plus, Mud always makes fun of me when I go Feynman on all of you up in here and it hurts my tender ivory tower feelings

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

MB ... greatly appreciate the discussion.

If the perspective is that the torso is loading in preparation for 'swing launch' then I'm fine with that as what is being 'loaded' ... only for me, and what I teach, the tension is relatively low up until 'swing launch'. Referring to that as 'late stretch/load' makes sense to me. For me the 'loading of the torso' up until 'swing launch' is on the light side. That allows for slack removal, looseness for upcoming quickness, and the building of that 'torso loading' to serve as an element for 'timing the ball' ... although my real feel is that of the torso 'preparing to pull'.

I liked your mention of the torso stretch going down to the rear thigh. That's a good feel IMO ... and for me it suggests that the hitter will make better use of the ground. In a sense the torso preparation spirals around and upwards ... not exaggerated like a golfer's back swing, but more a mini-spiral. That spiral is in a sense reversed for the torso-hip/engine. In this way the hips/torso don't simply turn, but also make use of the ground ... and hence the 'spiral' type movement. So a few pages back where TM was working with a hitter that showed a 'feel' of spiraling upwards, that same feel can be felt in reverse (to a much smaller extent) during the 'timing of the pitch'/'separation'/'preparation of the torso to pull'.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

MB ... greatly appreciate the discussion.

Thanks FFS, I'm enjoying, and much appreciate our [friendly] vs. emotional discussion also...and why I'm enjoying post here, and won't at "that other place". We had our tiffs in the past, but you've always stayed above it, no matter how hard I tried try drag you into the muck. Making an effort to not go back to my less than appropriate, and suitable ways of the past...but feel free to kick my in the arse when I start losing grip, and reverting back into the "mud", and not my present lovable "MB".

If the perspective is that the torso is loading in preparation for 'swing launch' then I'm fine with that as what is being 'loaded' ... only for me, and what I teach, the tension is relatively low up until 'swing launch'. Referring to that as 'late stretch/load' makes sense to me. For me the 'loading of the torso' up until 'swing launch' is on the light side. That allows for slack removal, looseness for upcoming quickness, and the building of that 'torso loading' to serve as an element for 'timing the ball' ... although my real feel is that of the torso 'preparing to pull'.

Yes to the bold, and all I'm looking to achieve with the "load[ing]" simply to allow the hitter to be "sudden" when s/he decides to "GO!" or "swing" to keep our terms congruent.

I liked your mention of the torso stretch going down to the rear thigh. That's a good feel IMO ... and for me it suggests that the hitter will make better use of the ground. In a sense the torso preparation spirals around and upwards ... not exaggerated like a golfer's back swing, but more a mini-spiral. That spiral is in a sense reversed for the torso-hip/engine. In this way the hips/torso don't simply turn, but also make use of the ground ... and hence the 'spiral' type movement. So a few pages back where TM was working with a hitter that showed a 'feel' of spiraling upwards, that same feel can be felt in reverse (to a much smaller extent) during the 'timing of the pitch'/'separation'/'preparation of the torso to pull'.

Yes to the bold also. Never understood how folks were talking about swinging/launching w/o the ground as one of (if not "the") first areas of pressure application to get things started...and was part of the initiators that reversed the rearward turning hip(s).

EDIT: Sorry Five, I just got a PM from pattar....

Edit: Plus, Mud always makes fun of me when I go Feynman on all of you up in here and it hurts my tender ivory tower feelings

...saying that I don't qualify to use the word "intellectual", so I had to go back, and change it to "friendly"... LOL!!

 

[Buttermaker]

Not IMO ... step one is the torso-engine ... step two would be the hands. Then a hitter can feel how the barrel action induced by the hands/forearms resists the forward pulling movement of the torso/hip-engine.

That said ... we've seen pros demo a two-stage progression drill where they take care of the hands first and the torso-engine second.

Not trying to change your mind. I get immediate results from the hitters I work with getting them to TTB. Then we build in the real power. And as you mention many pros will work the hands first and body second.

 

[rdbass]

Butter,
Is congratulation in order.......?

Isn't the 'loading/load' of the rear leg.....

 

[_MIA_]

EDIT: Sorry Five, I just got a PM from pattar....

...saying that I don't qualify to use the word "intellectual", so I had to go back, and change it to "friendly"... LOL!!

Don't misquote me, I actually said you cannot even spell intellectual nevermind being able to use it to describe your conversations

In all seriousness, nice discussion going on here!!