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[Buttermaker]

Learning to allow scapular retraction to take place ... i.e., lose the arm wrestling match.

Your torso-engine advances the barrel around.

I understand your position on things. I don't agree with it and that's ok with me. I am not interested in upper arm movement unless it is created by the forearms rotation (open chain movement as in rear elbow slotting and front elbow weathervaning)

 

[FP26]

I would agree with you if some/one of the biggest proponents of the "hand-centric" group didn't post on many an occasion that there is actually a "swing launch", and then a "barrel launch"....using the Manny BP in the cage clip to edit, separate, and define the two.

I'm also still waiting for any of them to state if the swing launch starts from the "launch position" as I believe it to be where the TTB launches from...or if there is some other "direction" the hands are taken or moved to depending on pitch location from where the "launch" of the swing begins.

I'd also be interested in someone defining that once the hitter decides to "GO!" or swing, how the barrel continues to "load" in that swinging/unloading process...and if the barrel is indeed still loading after the swing is launched...when (if ever) does it unload, and how?

All great points. I believe you know me well enough to realize that I am not going to speak for anyone else and will not take sides on either side of this or any other fence. I'm perfectly fine sitting high on top and in the middle of the fence with my popcorn and ice cold Yuengling Yager. But I certainly don't mind commenting on my personal beliefs on the topics.

Launch -- when I first started, launch was one of the most confusing terms to me. Different people refer to different launch points, which was mildly confusing. And the thought of multiple launches was disorienting... But all of my baseball life, what I have always referred to as launch was at a point in the swing that could not be undone. Trying to understand how someone could launch and then still check their swing has never made much sense to me. So while the barrel may already be moving on its arc to the ball, I personally don't view the actual launch until the point of no return is reached.

Direction -- It is my understanding that the hand direction being discussed is a very slight move. Instead of the knob being dragged to another point, the knob is more being flashed to another position, depending on pitch location. Honestly, even though the drill below was popularized by a different person with opposing views to whom we are talking about, the end result is really not that different. In order to laser the ball, as suggested in this drill, the knob must first be facing a particular direction. And if the ball on the tee was moved, the movement of the knob would be altered. Again, it is all a matter of which end of the bat you are focusing on. I am not interested in which is wrong or right. Just that either can be utilized to achieve the desired results.

Barrel Load -- Not something I ever really got involved with or was ever interested in. However, it is not my belief that the barrel can possibly reach max speed immediately at the beginning of its arc. While we want to accelerate as quickly as possible, it is still acceleration. This acceleration will peak just prior to contact. Just thinking out loud, while the barrel is still behind the body on its downward path, it could be viewed as still gaining momentum (i.e. loading) And the closer it gets to the point of no return, the more difficult it will be become to stop. And if you are into the whole centripetal/centrifugal thing, the barrel is ultimately flung in a direction through the ball. That would essentially be 'unloading', at least to me.

In full disclosure, I don't really use any of these terms when I am working with a hitter. I don't talk about launch. I don't talk about loading a barrel or flashing/lasering a knob. And whether or not I utilize a 'hand-centric' or a 'barrel-centric' approach really depends on the hitter I am working with and their comfort with either. It's the results that I am after. The verbiage is nothing more than a means to an end.

NOTE: I will not claim for a second that my views on these topics are in alignment with anyone else. After years of reading, swinging, reading, and swinging again, these are just my version of understanding. Nothing more.

 

[rdbass]

I would say I already know by the time I launch where I want to go but no way it's direct then launch

You mean you don't just launch and go 'find' the ball.....sarcasm.
Yes, those who 'use' TTB still use the eyes and brain during the loading just like all the 'other' hitters.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I understand your position on things. I don't agree with it and that's ok with me. I am not interested in upper arm movement unless it is created by the forearms rotation (open chain movement as in rear elbow slotting and front elbow weathervaning)

Regarding that lead arm movement you are describing .... yes, there is forearm pronation ... but the upper arm is moved as well and it can/may/should be felt as the torso-engine lifts the lead lat. Without that torso-action that 'weathervaning' isn't going to happen correctly.

 

[Buttermaker]

Regarding that lead arm movement you are describing .... yes, there is forearm pronation ... but the upper arm is moved as well and it can/may/should be felt as the torso-engine lifts the lead lat. Without that torso-action that 'weathervaning' isn't going to happen correctly.

With 2 hands on a fixed object such as the handle of a bat the twin rotation of the forearms will lift the lead elbow off the torso. The upper arms up the shoulder socket have a freedom of movement as directed by the forearms rotation.

 

[rdbass]

I would agree with you if some/one of the biggest proponents of the "hand-centric" group didn't post on many an occasion that there is actually a "swing launch", and then a "barrel launch"....using the Manny BP in the cage clip to edit, separate, and define the two.

I'm also still waiting for any of them to state if the swing launch starts from the "launch position" as I believe it to be where the TTB launches from...or if there is some other "direction" the hands are taken or moved to depending on pitch location from where the "launch" of the swing begins from there.

I'd also be interested in someone defining that once the hitter decides to "GO!" or swing, how the barrel continues to "load" in that swinging/unloading process...and if the barrel is indeed still loading after the swing is launched...when (if ever) does it unload, and how?

Again, maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I've asked the questions on many occasions in the past, and only get nasty insulting replies (no one here has done that...thank you all, and why I enjoy posting here), and not a single answer to what I would think are pretty simple questions to answer in a true "baseball debate" on the subject. JMO anyway...

Gif that started it all:

Their launch:

Their Launch position:

This was 'their' Direct/Load:

 

[rdbass]

This is my Launch:

 

[Mudders Brudder]

All great points. I believe you know me well enough to realize that I am not going to speak for anyone else and will not take sides on either side of this or any other fence. I'm perfectly fine sitting high on top and in the middle of the fence with my popcorn and ice cold Yuengling Yager. But I certainly don't mind commenting on my personal beliefs of the topics.

I can appreciate that, and I'm sure you know that I didn't expect you to answer for anyone, I was just responding to what you wrote as your views on the "hand centric" vs. "barrel centric" discussion/differences that have been going on way too long IMO. Sometimes I believe some like the arguments more than the learning or having a real discussion wrt them. JMO obviously...

Launch -- when I first started, launch was one of the most confusing terms to me. Different people refer to different launch points, which was mildly confusing. And the thought of multiple launches was disorienting... But all of my baseball life, what I have always referred to as launch was at a point in the swing that could not be undone. Trying to understand how someone could launch and then still check their swing has never made much sense to me. So while the barrel may already be moving on its arc to the ball, I personally don't view the actual launch until the point of no return is reached.

Understandable, and good point. I just look at it as in the split seconds that all of these things happen in...that a hitter thinks "GO" (launch), and then in a fraction of a second tries to slam on the brakes. Sometimes they're successful in stopping the speeding barrel, but many times they're not. I guess all I'm saying is that a hitter never "launches" tentatively, thinking that they may have to adjust or stop their swing somewhere down the line. Sure, there's the times where they're fooled, and basically just flip the bat/barrel at the ball, but the vast majority of the time they launch from the "launch position" with 100% intent of doing damage, and really nothing more or less than that.

Direction -- It is my understanding that the hand direction being discussed is a very slight move. Instead of the knob being dragged to another point, the knob is more being flashed to another position, depending on pitch location. Honestly, even though the drill below was popularized by a different person with opposing views to whom we are talking about, the end result is really not that different. In order to laser the ball, as suggested in this drill, the knob must first be facing a particular direction. And if the ball on the tee was moved, the movement of the knob would be altered. Again, it is all a matter of which end of the bat you are focusing on. I am not interested in which is wrong or right. Just that either can be utilized to achieve the desired results.

I think the bold is the determinate. But I'd also say that any "flash" of the knob better happen as part of the TTB concept, and not any hand movement away from that initial "launch position"...as I read others writing say happens. Again, JMO...and what I've gathered from all of the "debates" that have gone on for way too long now.

Barrel Load -- Not something I ever really got involved with or was ever interested in. However, it is not my belief that the barrel can possibly reach max speed immediately at the beginning of its arc. While we want to accelerate as quickly as possible, it is still acceleration. This acceleration will peak just prior to contact. Just thinking out loud, while the barrel is still behind the body on its downward path, it could be viewed as still gaining momentum (i.e. loading) And the closer it gets to the point of no return, the more difficult it will be become to stop. And if you are into the whole centripetal/centrifugal thing, the barrel is ultimately flung in a direction through the ball. That would essentially be 'unloading' at least to me.

I don't believe that any of the "barrel centric" group believe the barrel reaches "max speed immediately at the beginning of its arc", but I am pretty sure that they believe that if you don't TTB immediately...that you'll never reach the max speed you're capable of w/o it.

In full disclosure, I don't really use any of these terms when I am working with a hitter. I don't talk about launch. I don't talk about loading a barrel or flashing/lasering a knob. And whether or not I utilize a 'hand-centric' or a 'barrel-centric' approach really depends on the hitter I am working with and their comfort with either. It's the results that I am after. The verbiage is nothing more than a means to an end.

Well it's no secret that I'm "barrel centric" (really rear hip centric, but that's for another topic), but have come up with other things than just "TTB" in order to teach it. So to julray...no, TTB is not some "magic blue pill", but it is the basis of getting the barrel "behind and through" the ball, or getting the barrel to come "under and through" vs "over, and to" the ball...if you were wondering some of the other things/cues I use to teach the basic concept.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

With 2 hands on a fixed object such as the handle of a bat the twin rotation of the forearms will lift the lead elbow off the torso. The upper arms up the shoulder socket have a freedom of movement as directed by the forearms rotation.

With two hands on a fixed object such as a handle the torso doesn't simply rotate around, but upwards and around (twist) ... this is important for the lead arm action.

 

[rdbass]

Swing arc is not the same plane as pitch...