- Jun 8, 2016
- 16,118
- 113
Swing down
- Thread starter Shawn
- Start date
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- Jun 8, 2016
- 16,118
- 113
Everyone can see the barrel path..I don’t think that is what is being debated..well I hope at least.
- Oct 2, 2017
- 2,283
- 113
While 'swinging down' and 'staying on top' are somewhat similar in goal (and used interchangeably a few times above) they are not the same from a teaching perspective, IMO. The cue swinging down can cause all sorts of problems taken too literally. To me fighting to stay 'on top' while a rearward turned barrel gets sucked *under* results in all kinds of good things (ie, maintaining and even enhancing usable stretch while creating the desired barrel path) while being harder for novices, young kids and poor instructors to misapply. Swinging down doesn't seem worth defending or using.
- Jun 8, 2016
- 16,118
- 113
You could have added about another 10 threads to that list
- Oct 2, 2017
- 2,283
- 113
Trying to add value to the discussionYou could have added about another 10 threads to that list
I disagree !! Creating a loop behind you creates all kinds of issues. These guys are attempting to remove the loop while swinging "down to".. If this was such a problem wouldn't you think it would create all kinds of issues when going live ?
- Oct 2, 2017
- 2,283
- 113
IMO "Swing down" is for adjusting if your start getting to loopy.
Ted Williams:
Up, Up Is The Way
Now, what about that “level” swing? As I said, you have always heard that the ideal
swing is level or “down.” Your swing often coincides with your physical capabilities.
Certainly a Nellie Fox had more of a level swing than a Mickey Mantle, because
Nellie didn’t knock down fences. Fox was a great little punch hitter who
concentrated on getting a piece of the ball, on being quick with the bat, on
directing balls sharply through the holes instead of up in the air. He had his sights
high—to get on top of the ball. A fly ball from a light hitter is usually an out. When
the ball is on the ground it puts a greater burden on the fielders. Things can
happen.
But if you get the ball into the air with power, you have the gift to produce the
most important hit in baseball—the home run. More important is that you hit
consistently with authority. For those purposes, I advocate a slight upswing (from
level to about 10 degrees), and there is another good reason for this—the biggest
reason:
Say the average pitcher is 6 foot 2. He’s standing on a mound 10 inches high.
He’s pitching overhand, or three-quarter arm. He releases the ball right about ear
level. Your strike zone is, roughly, from 22 inches to 4 feet 8. Most pitchers will
come in below the waist, because the low pitch is tougher to hit. The flight of the
ball is
down
(see diagram), about 5 degrees. A slight upswing—again, led by the
hips coming around and up—puts the bat flush in line with the path of the ball for a
longer period—that 12- to 18-inch impact zone.
The Science of Hitting
—
47
Ken McMullen, formerly with the Senators, is an example. McMullen had a good
year for us after a bad start, and he did it by adjusting from a downswing to an
upswing. He did it all himself. All I said was, “Look, Mac, you’re swinging down on
the ball too much. You’re swinging down.” I got two players, Epstein and another
guy, and I said, “Okay, Mac, swing the bat.” He swung and I put my bat on the line
of his swing and held it there. I said, “Okay, Mike, you swing.” We held the other
bat on the line of Epstein’s swing and put the two lines together.
Now, it’s true that Epstein swings up a little too much, but there was too much
difference between his and McMullen’s, and Mac saw it, too. He was hitting about .
235 with eight home runs at the All-Star break. He ended up hitting .272 and 19
home runs. He began to get that hard overspin on ground balls, and they were
going through the infield with something on them. When he hit it solid, boy, it went.
He hit the longest ball he ever hit at the stadium, way up in the upper deck.
Revert briefly to what I said about unbroken wrists and the importance of hip
action. You can tie the three together right here. Swing level (or what is commonly
called “down”), and the tendency is to bring your top hand over the ball at impact.
The effect is a tack-hammer stroke, almost a “roll”—and it is not what you want.
You’ll find that even without good hip action you can swing in that manner, and the
result is a minimum of power.
But if you swing slightly up you have to have the hips leading and then out of the
way, generating speed and power, and you will find your top hand (right hand for
right-handed batter, left hand for left-handed batter) is in the strongest possible
position: wrist unbroken and directly behind the ball at impact. The result: a ball hit
with greater power and authority.
Certainly there are times when you want to think more about getting on top of the
ball—times when you are having trouble, getting fooled, popping up. The upswing is
harder for one reason: It’s a longer stroke with a longer loop to it. It requires more
time. When I say “get on top of the ball,” I don’t mean to swing down or chop, but
to get your sights higher and level out your swing more. Nine times out of ten when
you fail to make contact with a pitch you have swung under it.
The level swing—or, when you’re really having trouble, the “push” swing—is the
shortest possible stroke; you have less chance of hitching, or overswinging. It helps
The Science of Hitting
—
49
you get back on top of the ball and, more important, gives you more time to wait, to
keep from getting fooled. It is also the ideal two-strike swing, and here is where so
many of today’s hitters are failing, aren’t hitting as many singles and doubles,
aren’t hitting .300, but are striking out so much. They don’t protect themselves on a
two-strike pitch. Two strikes and they’re still swinging 100 per cent, trying to pull,
trying to hit the ball into the seats.
Ted Williams:
Up, Up Is The Way
Now, what about that “level” swing? As I said, you have always heard that the ideal
swing is level or “down.” Your swing often coincides with your physical capabilities.
Certainly a Nellie Fox had more of a level swing than a Mickey Mantle, because
Nellie didn’t knock down fences. Fox was a great little punch hitter who
concentrated on getting a piece of the ball, on being quick with the bat, on
directing balls sharply through the holes instead of up in the air. He had his sights
high—to get on top of the ball. A fly ball from a light hitter is usually an out. When
the ball is on the ground it puts a greater burden on the fielders. Things can
happen.
But if you get the ball into the air with power, you have the gift to produce the
most important hit in baseball—the home run. More important is that you hit
consistently with authority. For those purposes, I advocate a slight upswing (from
level to about 10 degrees), and there is another good reason for this—the biggest
reason:
Say the average pitcher is 6 foot 2. He’s standing on a mound 10 inches high.
He’s pitching overhand, or three-quarter arm. He releases the ball right about ear
level. Your strike zone is, roughly, from 22 inches to 4 feet 8. Most pitchers will
come in below the waist, because the low pitch is tougher to hit. The flight of the
ball is
down
(see diagram), about 5 degrees. A slight upswing—again, led by the
hips coming around and up—puts the bat flush in line with the path of the ball for a
longer period—that 12- to 18-inch impact zone.
The Science of Hitting
—
47
Ken McMullen, formerly with the Senators, is an example. McMullen had a good
year for us after a bad start, and he did it by adjusting from a downswing to an
upswing. He did it all himself. All I said was, “Look, Mac, you’re swinging down on
the ball too much. You’re swinging down.” I got two players, Epstein and another
guy, and I said, “Okay, Mac, swing the bat.” He swung and I put my bat on the line
of his swing and held it there. I said, “Okay, Mike, you swing.” We held the other
bat on the line of Epstein’s swing and put the two lines together.
Now, it’s true that Epstein swings up a little too much, but there was too much
difference between his and McMullen’s, and Mac saw it, too. He was hitting about .
235 with eight home runs at the All-Star break. He ended up hitting .272 and 19
home runs. He began to get that hard overspin on ground balls, and they were
going through the infield with something on them. When he hit it solid, boy, it went.
He hit the longest ball he ever hit at the stadium, way up in the upper deck.
Revert briefly to what I said about unbroken wrists and the importance of hip
action. You can tie the three together right here. Swing level (or what is commonly
called “down”), and the tendency is to bring your top hand over the ball at impact.
The effect is a tack-hammer stroke, almost a “roll”—and it is not what you want.
You’ll find that even without good hip action you can swing in that manner, and the
result is a minimum of power.
But if you swing slightly up you have to have the hips leading and then out of the
way, generating speed and power, and you will find your top hand (right hand for
right-handed batter, left hand for left-handed batter) is in the strongest possible
position: wrist unbroken and directly behind the ball at impact. The result: a ball hit
with greater power and authority.
Certainly there are times when you want to think more about getting on top of the
ball—times when you are having trouble, getting fooled, popping up. The upswing is
harder for one reason: It’s a longer stroke with a longer loop to it. It requires more
time. When I say “get on top of the ball,” I don’t mean to swing down or chop, but
to get your sights higher and level out your swing more. Nine times out of ten when
you fail to make contact with a pitch you have swung under it.
The level swing—or, when you’re really having trouble, the “push” swing—is the
shortest possible stroke; you have less chance of hitching, or overswinging. It helps
The Science of Hitting
—
49
you get back on top of the ball and, more important, gives you more time to wait, to
keep from getting fooled. It is also the ideal two-strike swing, and here is where so
many of today’s hitters are failing, aren’t hitting as many singles and doubles,
aren’t hitting .300, but are striking out so much. They don’t protect themselves on a
two-strike pitch. Two strikes and they’re still swinging 100 per cent, trying to pull,
trying to hit the ball into the seats.
the video was taken from Fiveframe years ago. Twitter just recycled it.
no one is disputing that the bat turns up through. its the timing of that ‘up through‘ that matters so much.
