Subject A, Control Subject, Elite College Hitters

[do-over]

I'm waiting to hear DO-OVER's take on the cues. TJ

Sorry, I've been away.

I tend to keep things very simple. Quite the opposite of FFS, which is not a shot at him. I don't invent drills/concepts. I let others do that and soak out all the knowledge I can from them.
What I previously posted above is a what I've gleaned those who have helped us in the past.
With regard to combating over rotating the upper body, here are the cues I used:

"Tilt not turn" is a move to keep the hands/arms/shoulders in the "alley" as my DD refers to it, or the slot as I refer to it, that exists directly in front of the hitter and is as square to the plate, or "hitting alley" as we call it, as possible for as long as possible. We use terms SHE chooses and understands. The cue I first used to my DD was "keep
you hands looking at the pitcher for the whole swing. She was 15yo at the time an easily understood this cue. Compare Miggy, Trout, Donalson . . . to the girl in the clip
in this thread. They aren't close to be in line with each other. That's not saying this girl has a crappy swing. I'm saying I would remove the shoulder turn in the load.
Search this site for Donny's complete presentation fir his PDF instruction if you already don't have it. It was my toilet primer for years (if you know what I'm saying).
It isn't easy to rid the hitter of this shoulder action. Over rotation of the shoulders is intuitive so it takes a lot of corrective swings.

Look at the best hitters of today in MLB. They have different shoulder/arms/hands action as well as how they use the lower half. Look at the clip of Chamberlin taking indoor batting practice. Watch her leg usage (not necessarily her stride.) You'll also note an arm bar in her swing. I wouldn't recommend it, but it works for her.
I can't view clips hear at work anymore, and I'm not supposed be on the web engaging in non-work related stuff, but I'm fairly sure she is square for along time.

Sorry to ramble on.

 

[tjintx]

Sorry, I've been away.

I tend to keep things very simple. Quite the opposite of FFS, which is not a shot at him. I don't invent drills/concepts. I let others do that and soak out all the knowledge I can from them.
What I previously posted above is a what I've gleaned those who have helped us in the past.
With regard to combating over rotating the upper body, here are the cues I used:

"Tilt not turn" is a move to keep the hands/arms/shoulders in the "alley" as my DD refers to it, or the slot as I refer to it, that exists directly in front of the hitter and is as square to the plate, or "hitting alley" as we call it, as possible for as long as possible. We use terms SHE chooses and understands. The cue I first used to my DD was "keep
you hands looking at the pitcher for the whole swing. She was 15yo at the time an easily understood this cue. Compare Miggy, Trout, Donalson . . . to the girl in the clip
in this thread. They aren't close to be in line with each other. That's not saying this girl has a crappy swing. I'm saying I would remove the shoulder turn in the load.
Search this site for Donny's complete presentation fir his PDF instruction if you already don't have it. It was my toilet primer for years (if you know what I'm saying).
It isn't easy to rid the hitter of this shoulder action. Over rotation of the shoulders is intuitive so it takes a lot of corrective swings.
Look at the best hitters of today in MLB. They have different shoulder/arms/hands action as well as how they use the lower half. Look at the clip of Chamberlin taking indoor batting practice. Watch her leg usage (not necessarily her stride.) You'll also note an arm bar in her swing. I wouldn't recommend it, but it works for her.
I can't view clips hear at work anymore, and I'm not supposed be on the web engaging in non-work related stuff, but I'm fairly sure she is square for along time.

Sorry to ramble on.

Thanks for the reply DO-OVER
I think I understand your cues and I agree with the desired outcome.
"keep your hands looking at the pitcher" I associate that with the lead forearm as well. Picture a line from the bottom hand through the lead forearm and towards the pitcher. The angle may move up or down a little while the body moves but should not stray far(left/right) from the pitcher. does that sound close to what you are saying?
So to your point of removing the shoulder turn in the load. The feeling of loading needs to be moved from the shoulders(wrapping around) to the body creating the same type of load. Of course you don't want the legs to turn back either right? So if the shoulders don't wrap or turn or load back AND the legs don't wrap or turn or load back(rotationally) then what would you say does the work of loading or creating resistance in the load? It has to be between the shoulders and the legs somewhere wouldn't you say?

 

[do-over]

Thanks for the reply DO-OVER
I think I understand your cues and I agree with the desired outcome.
"keep your hands looking at the pitcher" I associate that with the lead forearm as well. Picture a line from the bottom hand through the lead forearm and towards the pitcher. The angle may move up or down a little while the body moves but should not stray far(left/right) from the pitcher. does that sound close to what you are saying?
So to your point of removing the shoulder turn in the load. The feeling of loading needs to be moved from the shoulders(wrapping around) to the body creating the same type of load. Of course you don't want the legs to turn back either right? So if the shoulders don't wrap or turn or load back AND the legs don't wrap or turn or load back(rotationally) then what would you say does the work of loading or creating resistance in the load? It has to be between the shoulders and the legs somewhere wouldn't you say?

Most refer to resistance between the upper and lower. I've never taught my DD any resistance between the shoulders vs. anything. Swingbuilder's mantra back in the day was: "the shoulders are bypassed". At the same time, someone, somewhere, was advocating resistance between the hips vs. the hands, which makes sense to me. So this was drilled into the kid. With her, the hands are in control of the upper torso. I come to understand, for my kid, it's really the hands vs. the legs. To complicate matters, the back elbow plays a major role in that it sets up the inside the ball swing path. It does this by working its way down towards the rib cage before the weight transfer to the front side is complete. This is easily observable in the clip of Goodacre you posted. As her pelvis (midline as we call it) moves out towards the pitcher the back elbow starts its drop to the elbow slot. This occurs even in takes/check swings. The reason I mention the back elbow here, is, I have gotten my DD to develop the lower vs. upper body resistance
with this back elbow drop/slot. The difference between my beliefs any the gang here is a lot will tell us to fling the barrel reward. I say keep the barrel loaded and drop the elbow while torqueing, ever so loosely, the bat handle but the barrel must not fling reward (behind the shoulder or back). A clip was made of my DD showing her doing this during indoor batting practice back in 2011 I believe. It was made by MTS I think and had vroom vroom, which related to how one uses a throttle on a motorcycle.
He to my knowledge was/is the only poster that understood what I was saying. By the way, we both agreed on this action. Smart man he is. So this slight torqueing of the bat handle will work along with the back elbow dropping to create the resistance against the legs. That's how I see it anyway. The only bone of contention is:
Does the bat handle torque cause the elbow drop or does the elbow drop cause the handle torque? Does it even matter which causes which?
By looking at the Goodacre clip, I would lean towards the back elbow causing the handle torque, being that there is very little in her swing.

Equally as important as lower vs. upper body resistance, perhaps more critical, is front side vs. back side resistance. That's a thread of its own.
As always, JMHO.

 

[mann]

Doesn't the rear scrunch want to bring the elbow down?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Mann, the answer is 'yes'.