Strength vs. Efficiency

[ssarge]

Let me pose a question here (and I don't have a pre-ordained outcome in mind).

For those who have worked with college hitters (or hitters who otherwise have employed a large-scale strength training effort):

Do you feel the hitter begins to rely more on strength, and less on mechanics?

If so, is this all bad?


At thje college level, especially D-I, athletes get put on a pretty rigorous strength training regimen. At the better softball schools, the focus is definitely on core strength which adds significantly to potential power for ahitter. Arm strength doesn;t hurt either, I'm sure, but the point is, the typical female on this kind of structured, supervised program gets LOTS stronger. Measurable and observable.


Is there some risk - at least with some hitters - that the enhanced strength allows her to "get away" with swing inefficiencies and still get a desirable outcome (for example, a HR)? If so, that certainly has a good side, because no one's swing is consistently optimally mechanically efficient, and so this gives her more margin for error. But is there a possibility that the hitter stops even TRYING to be optimally mechanically efficient? I think there is some evidence of this. I also think that in SOME cases, there is SOME evidence that it leads to a more free-flowing, athletic looking swing as well, even if it doesn't stand up quite as well in slow-mo video.

Think Fred Couples in golf. A guy who has a swing that is marginally less efficient than some of the guys he competes with, but which is free-flowing, gourgeous, well-tempoed, well-rythymed, and VERY effective. And I don't know if strength is a factor in Couple's swing, but I see more propensity in female hitters to exhibiting similar traits AS they get stronger.

What has been the experience of others? Again, I don;t have an agenda here - just would love to hear the thoughts of others. I DO have an interest here, for sure.

Thanks, and best regards,

Scott

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I have definitely seen this in baseball players; really strong guys who never learned good mechanics because, for most of their lives, they didn't have to. They could just muscle the ball with their upper bodies.

I think Greg Luzinski is an example of this.

I would think this may be different with girls because, on average, they are going to have less upper body strength.

 

[ssarge]

Chris:

You're right about the strength for female athletes, BUT. . . .

When my daughter left for college, she could do less than 10 pushups. That increased to about 40 pretty quickly. Her squats went from a little over 100 lbs to over 200 lbs. Other girls some similar percentage gains. So there are gains, at least the first time the female athletes get into an intensive strength program.

Best,

Scott

 

[Chris O'Leary]

You're right about the strength for female athletes, BUT. . . .

When my daughter left for college, she could do less than 10 pushups. That increased to about 40 pretty quickly. Her squats went from a little over 100 lbs to over 200 lbs. Other girls some similar percentage gains. So there are gains, at least the first time the female athletes get into an intensive strength program.

I have a 7th grade daughter who's a swimmer and quite strong all over, so I'm very aware that not all are fragile, delicate flowers.

I took her to the ortho this AM and the topic of last night's swim practice came up. They opened up by swimming 400 yards, and it reminded me that last Summer, when I took my older son to Seabase in the Florida keys, we had to swim 100 yards twice for the swim test and it kicked my butt. She could swim a 100 without batting an eye.

P.S. She unfortunately doesn't play softball, despite her size and strength, because she thinks it's sexist that girls have to play with a different ball.

 

[Mark H]

Tell her they get to play with a better ball. Besides, the meets I've watched don't have females swimming against males.

 

[Hitter]

I have definitely seen this in baseball players; really strong guys who never learned good mechanics because, for most of their lives, they didn't have to. They could just muscle the ball with their upper bodies.

I think Greg Luzinski is an example of this.

I would think this may be different with girls because, on average, they are going to have less upper body strength.

Chris

In my opinion the girls are upper body dominate to begin with and have not been taught how to use the lower body. Why do you think they have been tagged with they throw like a girl or hit like a girl? Most male coaches still insist they stand tall in the box like a male. Their spines are more upright as females for birthing load adjustments and we as males are tilted more forward. Chipper Jones stands more upright than Manny and that is style however the girls do not have that much leeway because of the spine being more erect. They must bend at the waist and soften the knees in that order or they can not balance efficiently. Next look at the width of the hips verses ours and the stress on the ACL. Look at the Q angle and then ask why the male hitting instructors encourage them to start off knocked kneed or pigeon toed? It stresses the medial meniscus. Next is the female hamstring is under developed verses the males quad to hamstring. When we jump or land our glutes fire the knee slightly and that does not happen in females. Listen to a male come down the stairs verses a female and who makes the most noise? This must be taught and in my opinion it has been done very poorly. The studies have been done that in softball the female knee injury rate is 31% verses baseball knee injury of 3%. Their legs are not as strong as most training programs are designed around males and even the machines do not fit the girls as one size does not fit all. Then depending on the school the trainers are all about leg strength HOWEVER the girls are not working the hamstrings and are over working the quads which puts them at even a higher risk for injury.

Sarge their is a program at Santa Monica Sports Med that has a PEP program that you can download and has a ton of information supporting what I am saying about females. My girls in college are aware of the PEP program and have in many situations opened their trainers eyes and coaches to the importance of landing, jumping and cutting patterns that can be taught to the girls to reduce injuries. The studies were done with basketball and soccer players and a 41% reduction in injuries using this program has helped the females be able to compete at the next level IF the coaches will listen and stop all this old age mentality of weight lifting like males. I have been doing clinics for a long time and I am still amazed when I ask a coach to get balanced and then I push on their chest or back and they loose their balance. Then I ask them to bend at the waist a little and soften the knees a little and repeat and they can feel the difference. Then I have them soften the knees and then bend at the waist and can push them over. That sequence does not load the core so how can they use the legs effectively to hit or throw? I have 11 and 12 year old girls who can hit a ball 200 feet that are not strong however they have learned how to use their bodies with better mechanical advantage and learn to flow to the ball like water. I have a limited knowledge of martial arts from my younger days and I will take 1,100 years of martial arts movements verses 125 years of baseball and softball movements. It starts from the ground up and the Tia Chi people know exactly what I am saying, weight shift does not exist in most females as they are not built for it. However it can be taught. I have been blessed to work with what I think is the best female hitter in the world. Howard get the girls to feel it and explain it so they can feel the difference and they will do it. I like video however when they see it, can you as an instructor explain it so they can feel the difference? This is what the Big Girl brings to the table. She has fought an imbalance of the hamstring her entire career until a trainer said you are working on the wrong things as a female. You need to work on your balance and hamstrings. Prior to that it was lower back pain, hamstring pains,quads and an ACL surgery. If you can teach the fluid movement that she uses you do not have to have the upper body strength as she uses the entire body to hit with.

When I look at the snake handlers from India, I see a hitters body uncoil and the head of the snake is our hands, and the lower body of the snake stays in contact with the ground and flexes rearward to whip the head/ hands. Forget about the rotation and focus on the beauty of the movement. When the snakes head/ hands are too high it can not strike fast enough that the handler can not get out of the way. If the head/ hands are too low and the body is not coiled they can get out of of the way. However when it is coiled and the head/ hands are just about correct they even know to back up and get out of the way. Way too much science has gotten involved and the feeling has been over looked and how to get the female to understand it.

I am just finishing up with several of our girls home from college. They are stronger for sure and they are hitting the ball well, some in spite of their hitting coaches techniques! I smile when they say they really like the way I throw and who taught you to throw that way....my hitting coach! They all know about the PEP program and even if the trainers do not do it they work on their own to get the hamstrings built up and in balance with the quads.

I hope this adds to the conversation some way.

Thanks Howard

 

[ssarge]

I'll check out the Santa Monica info, Howard, thanks.

Had to laugh at the "despite [college] hitting coaches techniques" reference. SO true. Between a couple of Gold club teams with which I am involved, plus kids from the hitting academy, I've got a data pool of about 60 hitters currently in college play. The aggregate stories about hitting coaches, philosophies, methodologies, drills, etc. would turn your hair gray. Just almost unbelievable. A kid getting really good hitting instruction at the college level should absolutely count her blessings. There are certainly some great coaches out there, but it is FAR from universal.

Best,

Scott

 

[Mark H]

Most male coaches still insist they stand tall in the box like a male. .

Thanks Howard

Males should not be upright at heel drop either.

 

[Fastpitch Trainer]

Scott,

Good topic.

Here is what bothers me about Softball. Equipment, Distance and False Reinforcement for players. I'm sure most that post here have sat through numerous BP sessions at a high level. For those that haven't, it's HR derby, even at mid-majors. Not saying that's the point of BP, but the kid who can't get off the bench in 4-years, has enough pop to be less than efficient and get the ball out of the yard.

So the challenge for a college coach becomes getting a player to buy in to what I call the Fortune Teller Conversation. The coach has to convince a 18-22 year old kid, that "Yes, I know you hit 9 HR's in BP, but I'm telling you we have to tweak A,B and C in order to make sure we're hitting like that in games." It's a difficult task. We all see it coming, but sometimes the kids don't. They don't feel a pressing need to make adjustments, becuase they are getting good feedback in BP from their swings.

It's hard for them to feel the difference and trust that it's going to impact their game in a positive manner. Especially, when A LOT of these kids have been left alone for a long time because they played so well.

I was on the field for the Sun Belt Conference HR derby (I hope more conferences adopt this event) at their tournament last year, and there was a kid from Troy going off during the contest. Funny thing is a few of the coaches I was talking to were trying to figure out who the kid was. Probably hit 10 balls that went over 260 in the air, but that was pretty much par for the course at that level...and this for a kid that not a lot of people had heard of.

To me, you have to put hitters in a situation where the hitting flaws are exposed. One of my favorite things to do is have them swing wood. I'm lucky, our select program(D-BAT) is tied into a wood bat factory, so I get all kinds of toys to play with. But, you take an 8th grade kid, who is killing the ball, and put a 34 ounce, overload 2 1/4" wood SB bat in her hands, she starts to understand what REALLY is happening in her swing. It's tough to really get through to a 13-year old after she hits a bomb no matter the situation. She could have done some UGLY things, but she is going to try and repeat that success with the same swing.

Even 8th graders are getting strong enough to make mistakes and have success. You have to do what you can to expose the flaws to the kids. Just telling them isn't enough.

Until they come to the conclusion that they aren't doing something correct, it won't change. Sometimes they need to have a little failure, to really come full circle on a swing adjustment.

To me, you see kids "getting away" with being inefficient at times b/c the equipment is too hot, the fields are too small and the athletes are getting stronger and more athletic every year. Put them on a 225 ft field with wood in their hand, and they start to understand where the mechanics are, and what needs to be fixed.

Mark Mulvany

 

[Hitter]

Fast Trainer

We have a saying that our kids do not have a strike zone....we call it our hitting zone and if you can hit it you better be swinging at it! We work off the corners at 5 to 8 inches and at the ISF level those are strikes.We work below the knee and at the shoulders also. Lisa F will tell you at clinics, "If I throw a ball in the white, it was my mistake, as my job is to make the hitter make adjusts and decisions!"

We tell our hitters it is their job to determine what they can hit not the umpires and it starts with practicing bat control first. If you can not hit a ball up the middle then you have no bat control and you must perfect why the ball is not going where we want it to go. This is why we mark the nets so we have a hitting zone. Once they understand what in their mechanics controls the flight of the ball then we move to how to control hitting an outside pitch as we feel anyone can pull a pitch however can they keep it fair? We teach our kids how to hit a ball on an intentional walk also so we are fairly aggressive in our approach because we feel you can not hit the ball until you know what you can do with the bat and that is bat control. If they get called out on a third strike they better not even look towards the umpire as the hitter ALLOWED the umpire to do the hitters job and they blew it by not hitting it.

When we start them on the double tee we show them what goes wrong by swinging around the ball and they see the ball on the back tee go inside the ball on the front tee. We have them get under the ball to jump over the ball on the front tee. We have them hit on top of the ball so the ball on back tee hits the tee itself. Then we work on driving the ball on the back tee at an angle to drive the ball exactly up the middle and then away, then inside. We want them to be able to hit the ball on the ground when it is required and direct the ball to the position desired.

We are big on hitting mechanics first and style after mechanics. I still see soft toss being thrown incorrectly in on the hands verses varying the ball placement as would be done in an actual game even at the college level. We still see the quick hands drill, throwing balls as fast as they can to the hitter and the hitter trying to keep up with hitting the balls! This destroys any mechanics that you have taught because the hitter looses the lower half just to keep hitting the balls. If you are not practicing using the same mechanics in a practice that you will use in a game then why do it. I saw a Big Ten team have the entire team at the same time do the fence drill and I looked at the coach I was with and said this game should not last long. Throw two in on their hands for two foul ball strikes and then low or high and away and send them back to the bench...it was too funny!

Thanks Howard