So.....Peel or Roll-over....why is one better then the other?

[Madsdad]

Twenty,
If your daughter can get the correct spin on her fastball and keep it low in the zone, she is on her way. Keep it simple use a string to help re enforce an early release. As one of daughter's coaches always tells her "practice make permanent" get the correct angle and spin, it will drop. As for the "biggest out pitch" my guess would be the high number of miss hit balls it is as simple as that.

 

[sluggers]

Q: Why is the drop becoming more important in college softball?
A: Hot bats. In the old days, a good riseball pitcher would get strikeouts, popups and a few flyballs. With the modern hot bats, many of those popups are ending up on the other side of the fence. It is amazing how many mishit balls which should be outs end up over the fence. If a pitcher throws a drop, the ball gets hit hard, it will be a double at best.

Q: What is the confusion over the peel and roll over drop?
A: The hand position for the peel and the roll over is identical at release--the fingers are behind the ball at release The difference in the two pitches is the amount of IR (internal rotation) applied to the ball at release. In a "pure" peel drop, there is zero IR. In a roll over, there is a tremendous amount of IR applied to the ball, giving the characteristic "downward pointing fingers" after release.

Before high speed photography, people believed that the hand came over the top of the ball at release. Some people still believe the rollover is thrown that way--they are wrong.

Attached is a picture of my DD throwing a "rollover" drop.

Q: Huh?
A: There are different ways to put spin on an object. Suppose you turned a bicycle upside down and wanted to spin one of the wheels. One way to spin the wheel would be to put your fingers on a spoke and move your hand parallel to the ground in a slapping motion. That is a "pure peel" motion. The other way is to put your fingers on the spoke and do a circular or twisting motion with your hand. That is the "rollover" drop motion.

The fingers on the spoke are in exactly the same position. However, the motion of the fingers is different. That is the same distinction between the rollover and the peel.

Q: Why does a pitcher need to put IR on a drop?
A: To get the "big break" on a ball, the ball has to be spinning about 23 RPS or more. In order to get that much spin, a woman has to use IR when throwing a drop. They simply don't have enough arm and hand strength to throw one.

Some background: To be successful in D1 ball, the pitches have to break a lot...maybe 12 to 14 inches. To be successful at 12U softball, a kid needs a 2 inch break. The result is a bunch of Daddies at tournaments talking about how their DD throws five breaking pitches, when, in reality, their kids can't throw one breaking pitch.

Q: Why do they call it a rollover?
A: The best way for a child to understand how to put the IR on a drop ball is to describe the feeling of "rolling the hand" over the ball. But, as stated previously, the hand doesn't really roll over the ball at release.

It would be more descriptive to call a "rollover drop" as a "drop ball with IR".

Q: Does a rollover exist?
A: Does black exist without white? If there was no day, would there be a night? If there is no rollover drop, then there is no peel drop? In reality, everyone throws a drop ball. The only distinction between the pitches is how much IR is applied to the ball at release.

In many ways, it is still the dark ages of softball. Given that we people talk about late breaks, rising pitches, and the greater movement of four seam fastballs, I doubt people are going to stop using "peel" and "rollover" in my lifetime.

Q: Doesn't Cat Osterman throw a peel?
A: ROFLMAO. If you watch her *TALK* about her drop, she describes throwing a pure peel. When you watch her *THROW* a drop, she uses tons of IR on her drop.


Q: Why do you think you know so much about this?
A: My DD was an all-conference D1 pitcher. She got four years of college paid for because she threw a "rollover" drop. There are many better pitchers than my DD, but I have never seen a pitcher throw a better drop than my DD.

 

[Twenty20ticker]

Twenty, I can't answer your question but I do have a comment.

After being around lots and lots of softball parents with paid hitting and pitching coaches, I chafe at any parent who thinks they have found the ONLY coach who has seen the One True Path to success. These parents buy into the baloney when the guy who takes their twenty dollar bills says "Stray not from my learned wisdom and your Daughter will be soon pitching at Oklahoma. Go to the other instructor and she will certainly face failure and scorn of all. I am the only true one, all others are False."

One instructor was probably taught a peel when she was a 10u and the other was taught a rollover, (which may or not be the same pitch), or if the instructor is a guy whatever videos he watched to learn about pitching in 1989 taught one vs. another.

My advice is to pay attention to Boardmember, Hillhouse, Rick Pauly and all the other people who post here and make up your mind based on what they say.

Thanks....my daughters instructor actually went to Bill for some lessons back in high school so we already listen to them.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Before high speed photography, people believed that the hand came over the top of the ball at release. Some people still believe the rollover is thrown that way--they are wrong.

Great Post ! I'm wondering if you can expand the high speed photography?

What are the most popular cameras used @ the college level? How many fps is enough to be considered real college level information?

 

[Mike]

In a "pure" peel drop, there is zero IR.

A peel drop in arguably the fastest pitch a pitcher can throw, my guess is it has the most complete IR.

My other guess is the only pitch thrown with no IR is maybe a certain style of change up.


No IR = slow.

 

[Westwind]

Twenty- that's pretty cool. Being on the same page with Hillhouse can't be a bad thing.

We have a lesson with him this weekend, DD and us are really looking forward to it. We really love our local instructor but when you have a chance to go learn from one of the best, you gotta jump at it.

 

[Westwind]

Sluggers, really appreciate your post. I think you make some great points.

I really wanted DD to work on a peel due to what I read here.

We didn't have much luck trying to teach the peel to my 10u DD but she understood the rollover. I think the rollover ended up being thrown like we were trying to get her to throw a peel.... Two ways of explaining, maybe the same destination?

 

[JUAN GONZALEZ]

this video shows a roll-over drop Angela Tincher Drop Ball - YouTube

 

[Rocketech1]

It would be more descriptive to call a "rollover drop" as a "drop ball with IR"

No, it would not be more descriptive, only more confusing since that is a misleading statement. Unless you are throwing a peel drop pushing the ball down the circle and pulling up to a hello elbow release, every "peel drop" (which is a essentially a four seam or two fastball) is going to use some degree of internal rotation. Same goes with the "rollover drop", you can use as much internal rotation or as little as you want. Obviously the more internal rotation the more spin and velocity on the pitch. So one of the most important concepts is that IR is on a continuum and not an all or non action no matter which drop you throw.

The difference with the two pitches is with the rollover, the throwing shoulder is more involved in the pitch (see Jennie Finch) as she tries to get on top of the ball, more so than the peel drop and I would argue that because of this release angle is the biggest difference between the two pitches not the amount of IR. Lets not confuse anyone that the peel drop doesn't use IR, it most definitely does.

 

[FP26]

My DD throws the version that sluggers shows in his pictures. I previously called it a roll over, but her pitching coach just calls it a drop. He teaches both the peel drop and this drop. Typically he teaches the younger pitchers the peel and then eventually moves them or introduces this version later (not sure why...). When he started to work with DD he asked to see her drop. She threw this. Coaches response was "ok, let's stick with that". I took his answer to mean that he was pleased with what he saw, and I didn't ask any questions.