Screwing in foot for the Move...

[tom.guerry]

jbooth: The laws of physics come into play when the back foot is weighted, and the force that the glutes are putting into trying to abduct the leg, causes the torso to shift in the opposite direction. The forces attempting to externally rotate the leg, actually cause it to internally rotate.

If you try this/"move emphasis", you get IR-ER-IR at the rear hip, the "wrongperson":

http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy225/mnbtds01/Wrongerson.gif


Instead, what you want is ongoing tightening IR which is produced by the upper body resistance/sequenced pull back opposed by rear leg IR that produces the metronomic back and forth of the hip as described by Williams.

On the other hand if you have unopposed rear leg IR you get the bug squish.

for pullback vs IR tug of war/ragwring description, see:

Teacherman's HittingIllustrated.com - View Single Post - Power Implodes

"At first the corner is established by the hip socket separation. But as the pull backs continue....the leg fights it....begins to win. Turns forward. That forward turn would bleed the corner if the lower back didn't pull back to keep the bat behind the corner. Stretch gets intense. Then the scap clamp/pinch pulls back as the leg/hip/lowerback gets turned evern further forward.....as the rear leg internally rotates even more....to fight the continued pull backs....again.....to keep the bat behind the corner."

 

[jbooth]

jbooth: The laws of physics come into play when the back foot is weighted, and the force that the glutes are putting into trying to abduct the leg, causes the torso to shift in the opposite direction. The forces attempting to externally rotate the leg, actually cause it to internally rotate.

If you try this/"move emphasis", you get IR-ER-IR at the rear hip, the "wrongperson":

http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy225/mnbtds01/Wrongerson.gif


Instead, what you want is ongoing tightening IR which is produced by the upper body resistance/sequenced pull back opposed by rear leg IR that produces the metronomic back and forth of the hip as described by Williams.

On the other hand if you have unopposed rear leg IR you get the bug squish.

fpr pullback vs IR description, see:

Teacherman's HittingIllustrated.com - View Single Post - Power Implodes

"At first the corner is established by the hip socket separation. But as the pull backs continue....the leg fights it....begins to win. Turns forward. That forward turn would bleed the corner if the lower back didn't pull back to keep the bat behind the corner. Stretch gets intense. Then the scap clamp/pinch pulls back as the leg/hip/lowerback gets turned evern further forward.....as the rear leg internally rotates even more....to fight the continued pull backs....again.....to keep the bat behind the corner."

I agree that "wrongerson" is wrong. "Righterson" is close to what I'm saying except I believe there is less foot twist and more femur abduction.

The bold above is a nonsensical, ridiculous, description, scientifically incorrect and much of it has nothing to do with the leg action.

 

[Wellphyt]

jbooth: I would be interested in getting your description of the rear leg to hip relationship in each frame in the following sequence. I have the following:

Frame One: Neutral
Frame Two: Internal Rotation
Frame Three: ???
Frame Four: ???
Frame Five: Neutral

 

[tom.guerry]

you might give jim the actual clip so he can toggle back and forth to better assess what is happening between the ball of femur and acetabulum at the rear hip.

same action as in this type overhand throw:

Training Movement Patterns: What Sport Specificity Really Means


"From 1:15 to 1:17, my hip is forcefully driving towards my target and the weight is on the posterior side of my body meaning the heel side (not the right leg side). At 1:17 you can see how far the hip has moved from its initial position. As mentioned above, my knee is not collapsing. My femur is internally rotating in the acetabulum, not the other way around. There is no real intitial pelvic rotation. This happens later on in the sequence of the throw. It’s a linear movement in the transverse plane. (crazy as it may sound, but it’s true)."

------

If you can throw, you can hit.

The sequential pull back/tug of war with rear leg IR "under the hood", well explained by the bold verbage jim dislikes, produces the metronomic hip action and "sit" appearance of the high level pattern.

Sometimes you have to try things you don't like or believe in to figure out what's what.


"the move" emphasis came from the Hogan pattern of golf swing where you get the weight to the front foot early and rotate around the front hip with a tight circular handpath with IR-ER-IR at the rear hip.. Very different from the rear hip pivot/ongoing IR of the MLB swing pattern

 

[jbooth]

jbooth: I would be interested in getting your description of the rear leg to hip relationship in each frame in the following sequence. I have the following:

Frame One: Neutral
Frame Two: Internal Rotation
Frame Three: ???
Frame Four: ???
Frame Five: Neutral

View attachment 1752

Frame One: Neutral
Frame Two: Internal Rotation
Frame Three: The femur has abducted and laterally rotated which pushed the torso forward and turned the hips back toward neutral
Frame Four: The weight is going onto the front foot, the femur is now adducting and causing internal rotation of the back leg. The weight is mostly off of the back leg at this point, and is in the process of unweighting.
Frame Five: Neutral

The back leg internally rotates, but only after the torso has been pushed forward and the hips have turned.

Bug squishers don't push and rotate as the front foot gets weight. They internally rotate the leg and then push, instead of pushing and then internally rotating the leg.

 

[Wellphyt]

Frame One: Neutral
Frame Two: Internal Rotation
Frame Three: The femur has abducted and laterally rotated which pushed the torso forward and turned the hips back toward neutral
Frame Four: The weight is going onto the front foot, the femur is now adducting and causing internal rotation of the back leg. The weight is mostly off of the back leg at this point, and is in the process of unweighting.
Frame Five: Neutral

The back leg internally rotates, but only after the torso has been pushed forward and the hips have turned.

Bug squishers don't push and rotate as the front foot gets weight. They internally rotate the leg and then push, instead of pushing and then internally rotating the leg.

Thanks. I had Frame Three as heading back to neutral also, but wasn't 100% sure. I'm relieved to see you use the term "Laterally Rotated", as this matches discussions I've had with my wife who has been a physical therapist for 30 years.

Frame Four is where I was the most unsure. I never really thought about the femur "adducting" in that frame. I was looking at it more in terms of IR and ER. So that is very helpful and adds to my understanding of what is technically going on under-the-hood.

All of this just reinforces my belief in what Ted Williams said about the weight shift.

 

[tom.guerry]

another good rear hip angle clip:

http://firstpickclub.com/video/apujolssep.gif

rear hip gets and stays IR'd.

then comes spine engine stretch and fire sequencing of rear hip EXTENSION, leg/hip ADduction, front leg extension at knee.

rear leg remains in IR. front leg IR's to accept rear hip action.

well-

you/your wife might want to contact batgirl/lynnelles who understands the patterns well.

Lynnelles: "I'm a mom of 3 boys (ages 10, 12, 14) and have been trying to help them with their swing. I coach my 10 year old's baseball team. I'm also a physical therapist so I've been trying to understand the swing biomechanically. I've studied info from JM, ME, PN, SE and CO. In each of their teachings, some aspect did not make sense to me biomechanically. I was searching online for answers about loading, unloading, timing and thankfully stumbled across HI."


See her swing at:

- Login

 

[tom.guerry]

Under the hood, there is a tug of war at the rear hip pivot with the lead leg on one side and the hip resisting as "bottom of top" (slaved to pull back of back/scap/torquing of handle) not top of bottom which would put the tug of war elsewhere to wring the rag.

Another description:

Teacherman's HittingIllustrated.com

"During the takeway.......Keep your pelvis turning to the right (Rh'r) in the transition into the downswing..........Not your foot........Your pelvis........."Do you feel the separation that happens between your hands and rear hip in the transition when you keep your pelvis turning right as your hands begin to fire?.......All I think about is my pelvis continuing to turn right (resisting rotation).............But I don't think about my foot........I think about RESISTING with my hips........

Sorry for the long story.......But I thought I'd tell you that whether or not I'm describing what your are.........The pelvis RESISTING ROTATION is absolutely correct in my eyes.......The "load never stops"..........

 

[jryan15]

Stever ... always looking for better ways to teach things.

And you are correct ... the rear foot basically serves as resistance as the 'rear hip' AND 'rear leg' are coiled.

FFS, this post made it all click. It appears that I had not truly understood the relationship of the foot, leg, and hips during coil ... I've read hundreds "coil" posts on this forum and watched just as many clips. It just clicked.


Before: After:


I see it everywhere now! I re-read this thread and found it three times on the first page (Stever said it in post #2, Wellphyt in post #3, tom.guerry in post #9). It just makes sense now... I was too far in the matrix code to see it. I must have spent too much time in the "technical hitting technical forum" !

 

[jryan15]

So the ultimate reason for getting the rear heel down is so that the rear foot can do its job which is, "Do not rotate towards the catcher!". Without the heel down, there isn't enough ground contact to prevent it from spinning out (towards the catcher) while the leg/hips are coiling (towards the catcher).

Here's my interrpretation of lower body coil/load.

[Lower half coil]

1. With and open stance (front foot out while rear foot steps into position in the box).
2. Position the rear foot in position (foot should be straight into the plate or even pigeon toe'd, but not toe'd out at all).
3. With the heel down, dig the foot in or screw the foot in, but make sure it's locked for maximum holding strength.
4. With a bent and firm rear leg, position the front foot in the box. This will coil up the rear leg and rear hip (breakdown below)
   
   As the lead foot comes into the box:
   4a. The ankle and lower leg torque against the rear foot which can't move.
   4b. The knee and upper leg then torque against a lower leg which is max'd out in movement.
   4c. The rear leg is fully coiled and hopefully the front foot is still not fully into position.
   4d. Now the remaining rotation will come in the form of the rear hip coiling up against the upper leg
   [*]Front foot is now positioned with rear leg and hip coiled.​

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