Screwing in foot for the Move...

[jryan15]

I spent at least 3 hours today back and forth on all of the links included in the last several posts. Facinating stuff, but I'd be lying if I said that I got it all !

So the power that is coming from the back foot is to create a forcefull lateral move and to save the uncoil for heel plant of the front foot? I've always thought that I need to use the ground to force a powerful external rotation. In the Wasserman Throwing video it seems that the rear foot is coming off of the ground soon after the pelvis started rotating. In the very bigging of the rotation is the foot forcing the hip to start to fire, or has the hip fired already and the foot/knee is just along for the ride?

He says at 1:17 there is no real pelvic rotation (although I do see a fair amount of rotation, almost a point of inflection)... From 1:16 to 1:17, his rear knee turns "in" significantly... Is he driving the rear knee around from the ground? I had assumed that the massive amount of IR loading was to lead to an explosion of external rotation from the ground up through the rear leg. Was it there? Does ER happen, and if not, what is the point of the huge IR? Is the huge IR meant to force and maintain heavy coil through the forward shift?

I'm sorry about the rambling in this post. It seems that the more that I type, the more confused I get. I know that I should spend sometime to mentally recover before posting, but I'm gonna thread dump my thoughts anyway . Maybe some other poor soul will identify with my observations.

 

[jbooth]

I spent at least 3 hours today back and forth on all of the links included in the last several posts. Facinating stuff, but I'd be lying if I said that I got it all !

So the power that is coming from the back foot is to create a forcefull lateral move and to save the uncoil for heel plant of the front foot? I've always thought that I need to use the ground to force a powerful external rotation. In the Wasserman Throwing video it seems that the rear foot is coming off of the ground soon after the pelvis started rotating. In the very bigging of the rotation is the foot forcing the hip to start to fire, or has the hip fired already and the foot/knee is just along for the ride?

He says at 1:17 there is no real pelvic rotation (although I do see a fair amount of rotation, almost a point of inflection)... From 1:16 to 1:17, his rear knee turns "in" significantly... Is he driving the rear knee around from the ground? I had assumed that the massive amount of IR loading was to lead to an explosion of external rotation from the ground up through the rear leg. Was it there? Does ER happen, and if not, what is the point of the huge IR? Is the huge IR meant to force and maintain heavy coil through the forward shift?

I'm sorry about the rambling in this post. It seems that the more that I type, the more confused I get. I know that I should spend sometime to mentally recover before posting, but I'm gonna thread dump my thoughts anyway . Maybe some other poor soul will identify with my observations.

When you start the lower half the front hip is more toward the plate. You are coiled, or you can say the front hip is cocked (as Ted Williams described it.) Your knee is bent and the upper leg is bent at the hip socket.

To get maximum efficiency in unloading, the brain uses the glutes (butt muscles) to do an abduction and external rotation of the femur (upper leg bone). IOW it is trying to twist the leg so that the toes go toward the catcher, and move the foot toward the back of the box. Because the foot is securely planted on the ground, this muscle action actually causes you to shift forward and uncoil.

IMO, you don't actually think of twisting your leg, you simply need to focus on using the butt muscles to push yourself forward. The uncoiling occurs naturally because of the geometry of the upper leg and pelvic bone. When a push occurs while you are coiled, the angle that exists where the force is applied, causes a forward movement with an uncoil as the pelvic bone is pushed to its neutral state. Done properly, the knee will move sideways and as you keep it bent pressure goes into the hip socket to open the hips.

You may be thinking of keeping the hip closed, but it will start to open. Once you have pushed onto the front foot, the backside force is done. The front leg accepts the force and momentum that is now in the torso, and blocks the forward momentum and translates it into rotational momentum by landing on a bent front leg and immediately straightening it.

As Dr Yeager describes it, it is a push off of the back foot (using the butt muscles and maintaining a bent back knee), followed by a block with the front leg (using thigh muscles and front hip flexors), and a push back (straightening of the front leg.)

The first push starts from a coiled position, the block and front push should be essentially and unconscious action. Other than you are conscious of using the leg to keep your head and torso centered. The front leg stops the torso from drifting over the front foot.

Cock your front hip and then get your butt into it, as Ted said. Use the front leg to insure that rotation of the torso occurs with your head centered between your feet.

Although it technically is push-block-push; all you need to think about is coil, push with a bent back leg, and block the momentum with the front leg. Coil, push and block.

 

[jryan15]

I can't thank you enough for the detailed explanations! I truly appreciate the time and thoughtfulness that you put into it.

Now to find some teaching drills!

 

[Wellphyt]

When you start the lower half the front hip is more toward the plate. You are coiled, or you can say the front hip is cocked (as Ted Williams described it.) Your knee is bent and the upper leg is bent at the hip socket.

To get maximum efficiency in unloading, the brain uses the glutes (butt muscles) to do an abduction and external rotation of the femur (upper leg bone). IOW it is trying to twist the leg so that the toes go toward the catcher, and move the foot toward the back of the box. Because the foot is securely planted on the ground, this muscle action actually causes you to shift forward and uncoil.

This is about as simple of an explanation as you will ever read on weight shift. It's really not very complicated once you figure it out. The key for me came when I realized that the shift just happens when you don't do anything on purpose with the back foot or knee to "make the shift happen".

As jbooth says, when the butt muscles kick in to reverse the hips, the pressure at the back foot will be towards the catcher. Just hold onto that pressure and the shift happens. If you consciously do something like drive the back knee down-and-in, you will immediately lose the pressure at the back foot and short circuit the weight shift.

The "Move" is simply holding onto the pressure at the back foot when the butt muscles kick in to turn the hips forward.

 

[RayR]

Glad we cleared that up....now we can move on to solving the economy....

It's really not very complicated once you figure it out.

 

[tom.guerry]

you must be looking for the technical economy technical forum.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

(POST REMOVED ABOUT FFS VIEW ON THE 'SCREW IN" & 'COIL')
To much information. FFS is a great swing analyzer, but as a teacher is average. The perfect combination here on this site would be to have FFS analyze the problems and have some others teach it. (and I like FFS)

'The screw in' and 'Coil' are the same thing, we are coiling the back hip by using the rear foot resistance. And please dont turn the toes upward, they should be doing the opposite- 'clawing into the ground'.

Again, you will lose all this resistance/coil on the inside of the back foot if the rear knee drifts back over the rear foot or beyond.

Stever ... always looking for better ways to teach things.

And you are correct ... the rear foot basically serves as resistance as the 'rear hip' AND 'rear leg' are coiled.

 

[jbooth]

except rear hip gets and remains in IR, there is no ER at the rear hip in the Williams/HLBB/elite MLB pattern.


Trying to teach the OPPOSITE of the actual pattern (ER back hip) will prevent the pattern

Tom, you just can't seem to comprehend what I'm saying. Visually, you see the back leg internally rotate, and IMO, you shouldn't be thinking of externally rotating the back leg, BUT the fact is; anatomically the action that causes internal rotation of the back leg, and a shift forward is the glutes performing the action that would cause the femur to externally rotate if it was unweighted. The laws of physics come into play when the back foot is weighted, and the force that the glutes are putting into trying to abduct the leg, causes the torso to shift in the opposite direction. The forces attempting to externally rotate the leg, actually cause it to internally rotate.

If you actually think of internally rotating the back leg, you get a bug squish. The leg turns inward because there is no ground force to stop it. The leg turns but nothing pushes the hip forward or into rotation.

It's simple physics. Equal and opposite reaction. When the leg abducts and externally rotates (or attempts to), the ground reaction force causes an OPPOSITE reaction. The leg internally rotates and torso shifts forward.

Again, you don't have to think about abducting, or externally rotating, or for that matter think of what you say to do. Your brain will do what's needed if you just keep the back heel down, keep the back knee bent, and push with your butt.

 

[jbooth]

Stever ... always looking for better ways to teach things.

And you are correct ... the rear foot basically serves as resistance as the 'rear hip' AND 'rear leg' are coiled.

It isn't as complicated as everyone seems to make it. I had the 6 yo brother of one of my students who wanted to hit. So at the end of the brother's lesson, we let him hit some off of the tee. All I said was, "Bend your back leg, put your weight on it and then turn the magic spot toward the ball." The magic spot is the top of the back leg near the crotch. He did it on the first try.

I also just said keep your hands at your shoulder and use your body to move the bat. He did it on the first try.

The swing is really pretty simple fundamentally. Keep your hands back, keep your shoulder in, keep your back knee bent, push with the butt and use the body to move the bat.

That is the fundamentals, then of course you have to refine it. 15 years ago I coined a phrase, "Hips, Handle, Head." It's a cue for my students to remember the fundamental sequence. The hips move first, the handle of the bat is pulled forward by the hips and shoulders, and the head of the bat is thrown at the ball, after the hands get moved by the hips and shoulders.

The hands should stay back as long as possible. The throw of the bat head occurs while the hands are still back, not after they get out front.

Like this;

 

[Wellphyt]

Tom, you just can't seem to comprehend what I'm saying. Visually, you see the back leg internally rotate, and IMO, you shouldn't be thinking of externally rotating the back leg, BUT the fact is; anatomically the action that causes internal rotation of the back leg, and a shift forward is the glutes performing the action that would cause the femur to externally rotate if it was unweighted. The laws of physics come into play when the back foot is weighted, and the force that the glutes are putting into trying to abduct the leg, causes the torso to shift in the opposite direction. The forces attempting to externally rotate the leg, actually cause it to internally rotate.

If you actually think of internally rotating the back leg, you get a bug squish. The leg turns inward because there is no ground force to stop it. The leg turns but nothing pushes the hip forward or into rotation.

It's simple physics. Equal and opposite reaction. When the leg abducts and externally rotates (or attempts to), the ground reaction force causes an OPPOSITE reaction. The leg internally rotates and torso shifts forward.

Again, you don't have to think about abducting, or externally rotating, or for that matter think of what you say to do. Your brain will do what's needed if you just keep the back heel down, keep the back knee bent, and push with your butt.

Really like what you say here jbooth. Very easy to understand.