right elbow up or against body (rhb)

[obbay]

And my point to him has always been; Why teach them 1 way when they are young, just to have to change everything when they get older? Wouldn't it be better served to teach them the proper way first?

EXACTLY!
Another thing is when they don't even know their players and they try to strategize without considering the players abilities.
DD has an excellent eye and is an excellent 2 strike hitter (real hits, not FCs) she had struck out only once all season when she was called out on strikes once halfway thru the playoffs. Coach chewed her a new one for watching a 3rd strike go by. So she no longer hit with 2 strikes because the coach would rather see her go down swinging no matter how bad the pitch was.

Her head was so messed up after that season.....

 

[jimginas]

What age group are you talking about? 8-14 year olds you can get away with it, once you get into the older groups the pitching becomes so much better, hitting spots dictating hitting the ground ball. That is what the defense is counting on.

interesting comment - worked at 18U in Southern Maryland, in-fact during Seed play in a Pony Tourny with our 18U travel team, we beat a Delaware team that were runners up to a Cal team in the Big League World Series. We did it by 10 run rule as we just hitting the ball on the ground as they played up and the ball kept getting through.
(( Sunday, we played them in the Championship game and lost. ))

Anyway, I do agree with you, today older well coached teams will defend against this. If you recall, I did state I don't teach that any longer, but if I had a 12U/14U team, I would..... maybe not 14U, but I definitely would at 12U. I'll address why with CoachKevin- he has a legitimate question.

 

[jimginas]

CoachKevin: And my point to him has always been; Why teach them 1 way when they are young, just to have to change everything when they get older? Wouldn't it be better served to teach them the proper way first?

Completely legitimate question and I understand where you are coming from.

I'm talking SITUATIONAL... If I have an experienced batter, I'll let her DRIVE the ball, I'm talking a batter that isn't as strong a hitter, a strikeout threat or someone I just want to see help the team because she can confidently put the ball in play and move runners and SOMETIMES the ball gets through becuase she didn't try so hard. Older levels, girls have better coordination and more experience.



This is my rationale:
1)We teach SAC Bunt, Drag Bunt, Soft-slap, hard-slap and Hit away....
** So the batter learns various ways to put the ball in play! We don't say teach ONLY to HIT LINE DRIVES
2) Do you teach a 10U and 12U fastballs and teach her to throw over MORE of the White of the plate? Yes - WHY? because they are still developing and still learning control and do NOT have the skills to pitch enough breaking balls consistantly yet. They are young and developing and in time they will progress. ** IF you use the rationale to NOT teach what they have to relearn, then you should teach these young girls BREAKING BALLS that almost never hit the FAT of the plate and NEVER teach her fastballs because as she gets older, she won't throw fastballs and certainly not over the plate!
3) Players ADJUST ALL THE TIME: - learn a breaking ball mechanics/grip one way and adjust as they move to a new pitching coach (whether in travel ball or college), - learn different mechanics particular to a coach for baserunning, infield fielding and batting, - learn DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHIES from what their travel coach taught them for YEARS... College coach instills his/her philosophies which at times differ and the player learns to adopt.
4) ** EVER TEACH batter's to hit BEHIND the runners? Weak grounder to 2B with runners at 2B and 3B brings in one run, MOVES the runner fromsee 2B to 3B and is an OUTSTANDING Productive out! Productive outs are much more team oriented, then a strikeout or a Popout........ ODDS are NOT in your favor with runners at 3B (or 2B and 3B) that your batter is hitting a ball to the outfield.
5) Hitting intentional groundballs in situations, ESPECIALLY off a Fake Bunt-Hit or Fake-Bunt-SLAP, provides opportunities for the ball to get through as middles tend to cheat to the bases they are covering.


** Coordination to hit intentional grounders develops their coordination and their confidence to put the ball in play. Hitting the TOP of the ball is an intended play, same as hitting through the middle of the ball, SAME as teaching to LOFT a ball (when situation dictates), intentionally teach to foul balls off (which I don't do, only because we don't have enough time to work enough of the fundamentals of the game.)

 

[ifubuildit]

Jim

I understand where your coming from but I think I would rather see a rising line drive off the fence scoring both those runners instead of just the one.



Dana.

 

[CoachKevin]

Good point about teaching the pitching...However, how much extra time do pitchers put in vs hitters? Teaching young pitchers to throw a FB is teaching the basics of the mechanics of the pitching motion.

Not trying to be a pain, but if your looking at only scoring 1 run off the ground ball, then why don't you just do a safety squeeze and bunt the ball? I understand your situation hitting, but almost all of the situations you have described can be accomplished by bunting as well. If your "hoping" for a groundball that gets through, then why not just bunt and hope the fielder makes a wild throw? It accomplishes the same thing, and with practice you can bunt a ball better than you can intentionally hit a ground ball, correct?

 

[jimginas]

Dana: remember my comment - I let experienced hitters drive the ball, we are talking batters that may have high strikeout ratios or you don't have confidence in yet AND younger levels.
Let me ask you this, BE HONEST - you're coaching a 14U team, 1 run game, runners at 2B & 3B and you have one of your batters up with low batting average, do you have confidence she will get a hit or hit a homerun or are you HOPING she will get a hit..... MY PERSPECTIVE is don't leave it to HOPING.. I believe in GENERATING runs and MAKING something happen by putting her in a position to be successful.... if she puts a ball on the ground and scores a run and moves a runner - she had a GREAT at-bat! If the ball gets through, even better, BUT our goal is to get the run in and move a runner. She will develop her hitting in practice, but in this game situation, I want to play the odds. (CoachK - yes a bunt may be a better option here - I agree.)

I'd love and MUCH rather they hit liners over the wall too! (( actually your rationale which is very good, is often what causes the young batters to strike out and Pop out... they are trying too hard. Again, I bet of you check your score books you'll count an amazing number of POP OUTS and STRIKEOUTS when runner at 3B and less then 2 out. THATS what prompted me to teach to hit intentional groundballs.... I noticed quite a bit of batters had pressure in THIS specific situation to hit the ball hard. They try so hard, they pull their heads or they try hitting deep and popout or strikeout. NON-PRODUCTIVE outs...... Do you know most Pro baseball World Champions are teh teams that have the MOST productive outs? If she makes an out and scores a run, I'm happy! If runner at 2B and that runner moves to 3B, even better! If the ball gets through becuase she didn't try so hard and she just made good contact and gets a hit -BETTER. Runner at 3B and your batter hits a SAC fly to score teh run..... SURE you would rather a hit, but I bet you are ok with her having a productive bat and getting the run in.

CK has a good point about the bunting and I agree.... I do a lot of bunting with runners on 3B - Pressure on defense is much greater and you bunt and bring in the run and possibility of BR being safe too? Not a bad strategy! I bunt in bases loaded situations if runner at 3B is fast and my batter is a good bunter and one of the corenrs is playing back! AGAIN, If I have a very strong hitter at the plate, I'm probably letting her hit away, if she is NOT a strong batter, dropping a bunt is a great way to try and make something happen.
** I ACTUALLY believe in BUNTING and HAVE done so in this situation where we ahve a batter that I just don't feel comfortable with yet with her swings at Varsity and 16U and older, and AGAIN, haven't had older girls in past 3 years hit intentional ground balls. Good point CoachK!

 

[Mark Downing]

elbow in a comfortable position "up"

If you have your hands in the right position , about shoulder hight, the hands are already out of the strike zone, which means you must swing down into the strike zone. By having your elbow up and slamming it down into your side you lessen the sevarity of the strike angle and put the correct backspin on the ball. Too much downward swing(elbow against the side) will produce groundballs , high pop ups or of course, misses. That small elbow movement rotates the wrists slightly behind the ball producing better results. Try it in slow motion and you'll see the difference. Hope that helps.

 

[Mark H]

Well if you stand straight up like so many teach, I would agree with all that. I do agree you don't want to slam the elbow down into the side. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you on taking the hands down but I'd prefer to see the hands stay near the shoulder through the early part of the swing and then stay in the swing plane. Photo 3 of 31, Analysis

Photo 4 of 31, Analysis

From this angle, it looks like down and up. From the front or back, it is shown to be one single tilted swing plane. http://firstpickclub.com/video/mannyswingplane.gif

Maybe you are saying posture and rotation takes the hands down into the swing plane. In which case I would agree with you and apologize for misinterpreting you.

 

[Wellphyt]

Is there a proper angle for the right elbow for a right handed batter. I thought up (90 degree angle) was appropriate but have an older coach teaching our 8U girls to have elbow down almost against the right rib cage or so? His reasoning is that as the girls get older it is quicker to turn on the ball with the elbow at the side? Not sure what to teach the girls at this point.

IMO, having the back elbow against the rib cage (pre-slotted) is less about quickness and more about simplifying the swing so there is less to screw up. It virtually guarantees that the back elbow will be correctly slotted in time to hit the ball square. The downside is that hitters may never learn how to use their hands correctly. At the very least, hitters who are taught to start with their back elbow at their side, should be instructed that it is "ok" to let their back elbow "poke up" away from their side when they turn their front shoulder down and in during the stride.

IMO, starting with a pre-slotted back elbow is not quicker than a raised elbow if hitters are taught how to get the barrel started early as seen in slow motion video of MLB hitters as well as the Bustos clip in the other thread.

IMO, you will get more whip with a raised back elbow, but only if you can duplicate the barrel path of Bustos, Williams, Bonds, Chipper, Pujols etc. And...get the back elbow correctly slotted in time. Very difficult to teach young kids to do, especially if you only see them a few hours per week.

At the 14U level, the hand path that I see all the time, is one where the hands drop down to shoulder height from an elevated position, and then the swing is initiated from that position. It's the typical "slot then swing" that is so prevalent in FP.

The reason FP hitters "slot then swing" is because they instinctively know they need to get a head start with their swing so they can get the barrel around in time to make contact. So they drop the hands, pause, and then drag the bat towards the ball.

I think a better idea is to start the barrel early in an arc back towards the catcher, at which point the hitter can seemlesses turn the barrel into the ball when they make the decision to swing. It's actually more of a whip.

 

[ifubuildit]

If you have your hands in the right position , about shoulder hight, the hands are already out of the strike zone, which means you must swing down into the strike zone.

Only if your standing straight up in the box. If your tilted then they will be in the zone.



By having your elbow up and slamming it down into your side you lessen the sevarity of the strike angle and put the correct backspin on the ball.

I would never tell a hitter to slam their elbow into their side. I would tell them to come around the back corner with the elbow. Elbow needs to be 3 inches from the side dropping into the slot. If they come around the corner with it at the side they will be in a much weaker hitting position.

Too much downward swing(elbow against the side) will produce groundballs , high pop ups or of course, misses. That small elbow movement rotates the wrists slightly behind the ball producing better results. Try it in slow motion and you'll see the difference. Hope that helps.

Not sure I understand what your saying here.

Dana.