Playing dirty? Totally fair?

[STRIKE3]

BR was coached to go to second. He is pointing to go to second. Now, taking it a step further, was BR "coached" to collide with 1b? Maybe, but not in an attempt to injure the girl.

several things:

1) if throw was coming from RF, 1B should have had foot on the upper inside corner or half of the base. She was positioned in lower left corner of base. Apologizes to OP, but it was poor positioning. Maybe she will learn from this.
2) runner was clearly intent on rounding bag based upon her taking a wide turn. When coaching kids in 10u, do you not teach them to hit the inside corner when going for second? That's what she did
3) this is a top level org. I'm sure they've discussed obstruction with the players, and if you are rounding a base and a fielder is in the way, if you hit her you get the call. Did the girl go overboard? Maybe. Or maybe her parents coached her on this and the coach had nothing to do with it. Whatever the case I highly doubt the coach had a practice where he said "level someone from their blindside"
4) this was a top level 10u team vs a lower level, age younger team. It's not like you can tell a 10u player before a game to "take it easy" on their opponent. They are playing every game wide open at that age.
5) any innuendo to hit a girl with a pitch at the 10u level is just wrong. Flat out wrong. If the runner would have been running straight at first and thrown an elbow???? Still wrong to hit someone on purpose.

Again, it's not a great thing to see, but I'm confident that after this much exposure everyone involved will learn from it. Coaches, players and parents. Sorry for those who don't like my response but I am 99.9% confident this coach would not want to see another player injured.

I don't disagree with most of what you state and appreciate you expressing your thoughts. I understand that you know this coach and he would not teach it so I can only completely trust what you are saying. So I will be happy to state that this was taught somewhere else and not within this organization. BUT she still lowered the shoulder and looked for the backside to ram into. That is taught or ....... it was learned at home from some other unfortunate upbringings which doesn't usually play out well for her future. I truly hope a coach somewhere taught her to do that.

To another point, I really wish there wasn't a play at 1st that could have happened. I could easily swallow that better and just say (as my own DD has learned when she plays 1st) get the hell out of the way if there is no play or you are going to get run over. My DD learned the hard way and it only took one time and it was truly a learning experience. She gets out of the way now. Unfortunately, this little girl was attempting to catch the ball because there was a potential (highly unlikely) but potential play. The base runner easily could have grazed her or missed her completely but the shoulder down sealed her intent and the world of video captures everything. Again, nothing against this coach or organization but I too would have reacted differently than the 1B coach. Perhaps he did and we don't know what happened later. I hope that is the case.

Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts. I think it is important to see and hear all sided of the story. It is how we learn

 

[soonerfan1966]

STRIKE3, imho, your judgement of this girl is way out of line. we have seen one clip of one game and there is no way anyone should make a judgement about where this player will end up. again in my honest opinion your judgement is just as bad as what she did.

 

[junkball]

I don't disagree with most of what you state and appreciate you expressing your thoughts. I understand that you know this coach and he would not teach it so I can only completely trust what you are saying. So I will be happy to state that this was taught somewhere else and not within this organization. BUT she still lowered the shoulder and looked for the backside to ram into. That is taught or ....... it was learned at home from some other unfortunate upbringings which doesn't usually play out well for her future. I truly hope a coach somewhere taught her to do that.

To another point, I really wish there wasn't a play at 1st that could have happened. I could easily swallow that better and just say (as my own DD has learned when she plays 1st) get the hell out of the way if there is no play or you are going to get run over. My DD learned the hard way and it only took one time and it was truly a learning experience. She gets out of the way now. Unfortunately, this little girl was attempting to catch the ball because there was a potential (highly unlikely) but potential play. The base runner easily could have grazed her or missed her completely but the shoulder down sealed her intent and the world of video captures everything. Again, nothing against this coach or organization but I too would have reacted differently than the 1B coach. Perhaps he did and we don't know what happened later. I hope that is the case.

Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts. I think it is important to see and hear all sided of the story. It is how we learn

And this may be the difference between an 05 and an 06 team. The amount of development and game awareness that develops in first year 10u vs 2nd year 10u is huge (and same for 12u - I think the gap starts to narrow in 14u). 1B should not have taken the bag position she did on a ball to the outfield. And the runner should have let up a little. Yes I saw the shoulder, but that may have been more of a defensive shoulder than offensive. Elbow out? Different story. My defense of the runner is girl sees ball hit to outfield, assumes a hit, coach is pointing to second, so she take a wide turn and looks to hit inside corner of the bag like we all like to preach "fundamentals." Then sees 1B on the bag and decides to give the blow rather than take the blow. This site loves to preach fundamentals, but when a runner does just that suddenly she's branded a "thug" by Riseball. She's 10u for freaking sakes...not holding up a liquor store.

I just don't understand how this is called "dirty" when this coach and org has such a great reputation, and this is not a typical play in 10u. Why would the runner expect 1B to be there on a ball to the outfield? Just crazy how some things get blown out of proportion.

I just hope that all sides and those observing can learn from this Assuming 1B was okay for the rest of the weekend, OP said she finished the game, it was a learning experience.

 

[Westwind]

Junkball, looked like she "clearly intended" to smoke the first baseman to me, had to make the same turn toward second with either intention.

My responses in order

1) "poor positioning maybe she will learn from this?" Please. What an asinine comment.

2) I covered that one above

3) Of course your beloved "top level org" didn't have a practice where they practiced this, the coach wouldn't want one of HIS players injured

4) No, you don't take it easy on a "lower level team". But you also don't do this kind of stuff to a player Of any level team.

5) ok whatever

Good luck with your top level 10u attempts to justify really disgusting behavior.

 

[STRIKE3]

STRIKE3, imho, your judgement of this girl is way out of line. we have seen one clip of one game and there is no way anyone should make a judgement about where this player will end up. again in my honest opinion your judgement is just as bad as what she did.

I have no judgement of this girl so I am not sure what makes you make this statement other than your own poor judgement. I stated 2 things:

1. either she was taught to do this (which I believe) and to add to what i have not stated which may have led to you draw ASSumptions which many make the mistake of doing
2. or she will end up in Juvi with the other .01% of girls. Statistically speaking....my numbers are too low and the odds are actually much higher. But again, to add to what I didn't say above is that if she was not taught this (again, I believe she was as most 10U players don't think to mow over a player) then something is in her at an unfortunately young age to do what she did to this young player with her back turned and never saw it coming.

I will repeat, I believe she was coached to do it. I think she probably hates the fact that she did it and wished she never had done it in the first place. But if that is not the case and she came up with it on her own then this will be the least of her worries.

No judgement whatsoever but hoping she realizes it was wrong and that she may listen less to whoever thought this was a good idea.

 

[pdqkevin]

My opinion is two things - 1) I know the head coach and know he DOES NOT put up with this behavior. Anyone who thinks otherwise does not know him. 2) when a 10u girl hits the ball in the outfield she is usually not expecting a play at first, therefore why wouldn't she round the bag? In fact, taking the angle to round the bag shows good coaching in getting ready to take the next base and lack of intent. If her intent was to destroy the fielder, why bother to round it? Watch how she takes an angle to go to second. That is the deal maker for me. Sorry, but that's my opinion that 99% of you don't like.

I can't agree with #1 because I don't know the coach but I completely agree with his second point. The only time a batter/runner should over run 1st on a hit to the outfield is on a ball that brings the right fielder toward 1st base in their act of fielding it. Otherwise every hit to the outfield requires a turn and look. That a 10 or 11 year old wasn't able to understand that her opponent was inexperienced and confused and thusly alter the way she has been taught to run the bases, and to figure this out in the second or two of time she had to figure all this out is what will always happen.

 

[dadofadirtlover]

And this may be the difference between an 05 and an 06 team. The amount of development and game awareness that develops in first year 10u vs 2nd year 10u is huge (and same for 12u - I think the gap starts to narrow in 14u). 1B should not have taken the bag position she did on a ball to the outfield. And the runner should have let up a little. Yes I saw the shoulder, but that may have been more of a defensive shoulder than offensive. Elbow out? Different story. My defense of the runner is girl sees ball hit to outfield, assumes a hit, coach is pointing to second, so she take a wide turn and looks to hit inside corner of the bag like we all like to preach "fundamentals." Then sees 1B on the bag and decides to give the blow rather than take the blow. This site loves to preach fundamentals, but when a runner does just that suddenly she's branded a "thug" by Riseball. She's 10u for freaking sakes...not holding up a liquor store.

I just don't understand how this is called "dirty" when this coach and org has such a great reputation, and this is not a typical play in 10u. Why would the runner expect 1B to be there on a ball to the outfield? Just crazy how some things get blown out of proportion.

I just hope that all sides and those observing can learn from this Assuming 1B was okay for the rest of the weekend, OP said she finished the game, it was a learning experience.

What does knowing the coach or the fact that it's considered a high reputation org have to do with what is clearly displayed on the video? Why is there an immediate need to jump to the defense of the coach when the video shows the player, the 1B coach, and the blatant NON-reaction to the play? His lack of a reaction is a clear indication of his acceptance of the behavior. His acceptance of the behavior at best means he approves of the behavior, but more likely means he welcomes it. Whether you know someone or not, the video speaks on it's own. Stop trying to give weak excuses for someone you want to vouch for. This is nonsense and should not be coached even though it probably was in this case as evidenced by video support. Here's a novel idea: why not ask the coach you're vouching for so much what was the reaction and response to that specific play. Top level or bottom level: wrong is wrong. Reputation doesn't excuse behavior and just like the players can learn and get better, so can a "reputable coach and organization". Noone is beyond reproach and the "reputable" shouldn't get a pass for inexcusable acts.

Go back and pause the tape at the 28 second mark. The runner was defending herself??? She tee'd off on the girl. How is that NOT obvious? Oh wait....because you know the coach and that can't be possible because you know him and it's a top level organization and top level organization never do wrong so it can't be possible.....right?

 

[junkball]

What does knowing the coach or the fact that it's considered a high reputation org have to do with what is clearly displayed on the video? Why is there an immediate need to jump to the defense of the coach when the video shows the player, the 1B coach, and the blatant NON-reaction to the play? His lack of a reaction is a clear indication of his acceptance of the behavior. His acceptance of the behavior at best means he approves of the behavior, but more likely means he welcomes it. Whether you know someone or not, the video speaks on it's own. Stop trying to give weak excuses for someone you want to vouch for. This is nonsense and should not be coached even though it probably was in this case as evidenced by video support. Here's a novel idea: why not ask the coach you're vouching for so much what was the reaction and response to that specific play. Top level or bottom level: wrong is wrong. Reputation doesn't excuse behavior and just like the players can learn and get better, so can a "reputable coach and organization". Noone is beyond reproach and the "reputable" shouldn't get a pass for inexcusable acts.

Go back and pause the tape at the 28 second mark. The runner was defending herself??? She tee'd off on the girl. How is that NOT obvious? Oh wait....because you know the coach and that can't be possible because you know him and it's a top level organization and top level organization never do wrong so it can't be possible.....right?

Look, I am familiar with coach. He is the last person to condone this. And we don't have the 5 minutes of video after. Did the 1B coach express concern for the girl once he realized she was hurt? Did he give the "destroy her" sign to the runner to plow her over? I don't know. Admittedly, the hit does look more offensive, so for that I apologize. But we have played against this particular HC a lot and he has never ever done anything I would call borderline, much less blatantly, unethical.

But seriously a well coached girl rounding the bag on a ball hit to the outfield cannot NOT be expected to hit the inside corner. Why was 1B anywhere near it? Why is it assining to presume that 1B would not be obstructing the inside corner of 1B on an outfield it? f throw was coming from RF she should have been on upper half of the bag. Have a look at 26 sec mark. Runner was going for inner 1/4th of bag to round bag as she's been probably been coached to do. And look at the coaches head/neck. He is looking at the ball and is probably shocked it was thrown to 1B and probably didn't know 1B postions. He is pointed to 2nd, and he is looking at the RF. He is not looking or runner. Actually he never looks at his runner coming down the line. Also an huge huge point - where were the other runners? What was the situation? Looks like at least a runner on second. Coach may have wanted runner to go to second to draw to home, and let the BR is question get to 2nd.

And to respond to westwind's #5 "ok whatever"....really? So where do you stand on vigilante justice in 10u, 12u, 14u, 16u, 18u, college, NPF, or Olympics? You just "whatever" at someone suggesting they hit a 10u girl at her next at bat for that?

I'm sorry that I'll be basted for not toeing the DFP line of execute the girl and coach.

 

[grcsftbll]

Well, I was there. My husband is an assistant coach. Their coach was not remotely sorry, it was 100+% clear he absolutely condones this behavior from his reaction when it happened, after it happened, and my husband's brief conversation with him. He was only concerned with getting his runner as far as possible and hoping our players' concern for their team mate would let her advance more. On a 10-0 score, that is, because ya know, we were probably going to come back any second. @@ This team has been playing in our neck of the woods a lot lately and this kind of thing sure does happen a lot for not being coached or condoned. The coach seemed downright smug about it. Junkball, I think you may not know him as well as you think you do.

Like I said in the OP, we're aware 1B was not positioned well. She hasn't played a lot of 1B lately and is rusty in addition to being young and relatively inexperienced. I don't think that justifies the violence of that shove, or their coach's complete lack of concern about it.

ETA- I'll have the whole game posted eventually, I can post the link and you can see what happened afterwards.

 

[Westwind]

Junkball, your #5 comment was an attempt BY YOU to try to sound like you were concerned after you went on and on trying to justify why this wasn't boorish behavior.

"Vigilante justice"? No, this was not justice of any kind. It was a blind hit that a kid put on another kid. It was a rotten thing to do.

There is no way to justify this. That's how I feel. Clearly.

Sometimes you play teams that don't know to get out of the baseline. It has happened to my DD's teams several times over the years. Not once has an incident like this has ever happened because a kid was so highly trained to hit the inside corner of the bag that they couldn't avoid blasting the fielder like Jack Tatum.