Pitching and staying sharp in-season

[El Oso]

so, am I to understand that throwing batting practice is bad then?

along those lines, am I to understand that throwing at an arm speed that you don't use during a game is good?

It's all about perspective. I try to look at things through the lens of what would help young pitchers, not what won't hurt. I look through the lens of trying to improve every time a young pitcher throws. Bill, you've thrown a bazillion balls in your life. Of course it won't affect you. A 14 year old on the other hand has not, and every pitch they throw should be a pitch that can help them improve IMO.

 

[_MIA_]

me too

Doesn't really count if you click on "Show Ignored Content" 3/4 of the time..

 

[Hillhouse]

along those lines, am I to understand that throwing at an arm speed that you don't use during a game is good?

It's all about perspective. I try to look at things through the lens of what would help young pitchers, not what won't hurt. I look through the lens of trying to improve every time a young pitcher throws. Bill, you've thrown a bazillion balls in your life. Of course it won't affect you. A 14 year old on the other hand has not, and every pitch they throw should be a pitch that can help them improve IMO.

You're right, I don't use the same speed or force during BP. That's why it's called BP, it's for the hitter not for me to try striking them out. That said, I used BP from the time I was that same 14 yr old pitcher that you're talking about. When I was trying to work on something mechanically that needed endless reps, I did it by throwing BP. When I was learning something new and needed the reps, I threw BP.

Don't be mistaken that I was born as a 28 yr old pitcher. I was the same as every other kid that is written about on this message board, except I am a male. I was also a 10 yr old trying to pitch, then a 12 yr old, then 14, etc. etc. I didn't take time away from pitching for other sports (I did/do Martial arts since I was 9 but even that didn't interfere with pitching) so in many ways I had the exact same upbringing as the girls we talk about here. The ONLY difference is, I didn't get to play in a league or try my own pitching out until I was 12. Girls start pitching against competition at 8 years old in some places.

I didn't have pitching lessons. I'd ask other pitchers how and why they did things, then I would try to imitate them. Who as a kid didn't try to imitate Michael Jordan? That's what I did with softball pitchers. And I would throw BP to men's teams when they'd let me and to girls team and individuals. In fact, I was pretty popular in HS because I threw BP to the school team.. and it gave me an advantage in the dating department if you get my drift. Not only that but none of those girls would ever break up with me or stand me up cause I'd drill her in BP next practice when a ball would "slip". LOLOLOL Relax peeps, I'm kidding. Sorta. But I started in the men's leagues when I was 12. Let that sink in. Would you put your 12 yr old daughter in to pitch against Oklahoma? Probably not. But that's what I did and I got my A$$ kicked like you wouldn't believe. It was called "chuck and duck". I'd chuck the ball in and duck so I don't get killed. But I stuck with it.

So, the bottom line is, I was also the 14 yr old pitcher that you are referencing here and yes, I threw a lot of BP. Personally I think it helped, not hurt my development.

 

[kibadbo]

Disagree. Want to mess up your timing and therefore your control? Do your workouts at an arm speed you never use during a game. Great way to mess up your timing.

This is an interesting point worth discussing more. There is a fair amount of evidence to suggest that your assumption here is incorrect. Adding variability to practice helps a player better self-organize and learn a skill more quickly and become more adaptable. Not only should you not avoid variability, you should consciously add it from time to time.

 

[El Oso]

This is an interesting point worth discussing more. There is a fair amount of evidence to suggest that your assumption here is incorrect. Adding variability to practice helps a player better self-organize and learn a skill more quickly and become more adaptable. Not only should you not avoid variability, you should consciously add it from time to time.

would be interested to see that "fair amount of evidence" as unfortunately, most of the evidence we have/use in pitching is completely anecdotal. As seen in this discussion.....

 

[Hillhouse]

would be interested to see that "fair amount of evidence" as unfortunately, most of the evidence we have/use in pitching is completely anecdotal. As seen in this discussion.....

I'm not really sure what is meant by "fair amount of evidence" either but, I'm not sure there would be any other kind of "evidence" than anecdotal on this subject.

I firmly believe, and I wrote about this on a different thread or maybe in a different group I don't remember. But the reality is for a pitcher is, you cannot get into game shape without playing games. And it's hard to stay in game shape without playing games. Case in point:

I have a student who pitches for one of the top organizations in the country. By almost every metric, they are one of the best teams around. Unfortunately, she's not considered one of the top 3 pitchers on the team (probably the #4). Lets call her Wilma, just so we have a name for reference. Right now, this team is at full strength and playing extremely well. However, they are full strength until May. When the month of May rolls around, 1 or 2 of the team's pitchers will be unavailable and WIlma will be called back up to be one of the team's top pitchers since 1 or 2 won't be available.

Now imagine you're Wilma. You don't get to see the pitching circle for an entire month, then you're expected to be in peak form and condition when the team plays next month without 2 of their "star" pitchers. I really feel bad for her. She's not going to be able to get or stay in shape by doing pitching lessons. And despite what we may wish, throwing 300 pitches per day in a gym or indoor facility isn't going to help as much as you think. Moreover, pitching indoors is very different than pitching outdoors where ground conditions, etc. all can create issues. When pitching indoors, there's no holes to contend with, nothing to trip on, no rocks to land on top of, etc. It's just not possible to get or stay in shape without playing games. I believe this is partially why MLB teams favor "Game simulations" as much as possible for rehab players and before spring training games start.

I don't really know if El Oso agrees with me about the benefits of throwing BP, but I think it's about the best things one can do to stay in shape during long stretches between games and to help fix issues mechanically.

 

[ArmWhip]

would be interested to see that "fair amount of evidence" as unfortunately, most of the evidence we have/use in pitching is completely anecdotal. As seen in this discussion.....

There is a lot of information out there, motor skill learning/acquisition has been scientifically studied for over a decade now, the question is do you really want to go down this rabbit hole? Here is an example;

http://gwulf.faculty.unlv.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Chua_Variable_practice_AF_2019.pdf

If you want something more practical spend some time looking around the Driveline website.

 

[ArmWhip]

Here is another study. I usually read some of the introduction then skip to results/conclusions. I found this one very interesting, it backs up the concept of 'repetition without repetition'.

Consistent Hand Dynamics Are Achieved by Controlling Variabilities Among Joint Movements During Fastball Pitching

This study aimed to determine whether covariations among joint movements are utilized to stabilize hand orientation and movement and to determine which of the upper or lower extremities make effective use of the covariation. Joint angles during pitching were measured in 12 skilled baseball...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[ArmWhip]

Here is a simplified version of variability:

 

[El Oso]

it backs up the concept of 'repetition without repetition'.

Does it? I read this which seems to conflict with your interpretation.

"The aforementioned results suggest that consistent movement by a pitcher plays an important role in maintaining accuracy during pitching."

Great article by the way. Study was regarding joint angles not arm speed, which is what we are discussing, so while not germane, still interesting none the less.