Pitching Absolutes

[JJsqueeze]

This pic is pretty much what I see in the ubiquitous (IQ coming back- using my big boy words) slo mo. Which brings me back to my original point that was actually on topic for once. Is the palm up an absolute? and if so, someone please fill in this gap in my knowledge, it is the only facet (I have a thesaurus next to me on the couch) of the I/R canon (on verbal fire now) that I do not fully accept.

 

[JJsqueeze]

Palm to the sky at 9:00 is an ideal to generate the greatest amount of rotation if the arm and hand. Of course you can pitch without getting fully palm to the sky but one should strive to open the hand as possible as the elbow drops into the slot at this stage of the circle. Do BMs demonstration where you hold the arm straight out and palm open. Now rotate the hand all the way to right and then back all te way to the left. Now do it as fast as you can, back and forth several times. Do you see your hand blur? He argues this is the fastest part of the body and during the pitch continues to much speed.

I agree it will rotate the arm the most and the fastest, the sticking point is "so what?" a figure skater rotates pretty fast, but stick a ball on her head and it ain't moving forward.

to be more specific, I see the speed being generated by the elbow bend that I/R allows and the fact that the natural motion of the arm is I/R, it is just this palm up leading to faster rotation and therefore faster speed that is confounding me. I do see one way where it would add speed and that is if the arm is still bent at release then there will be a moment arm created that the rotation can act upon to increase speed but it would be a really small moment arm in a windmill motion.

 

[Ken B]

The elbow bend is just one part of loading the whip. If the ball is pulled down (palm up) there is some stored energy in the ball. If the ball/hand is only coiled half way, some of the potential is lost. The best way is to try both ways yourself and feel the difference.

 

[Rick Pauly]

Couple observations/theories regarding the "palm to the sky"


1. I don't believe it is a movement that is "trained". It is more of a movement the body has figured out on its own to preposition the hand/wrist for the release action desired. Some of this may have to do with the grip and the ability or lack thereof to keep the ball from flying out of the hand as it gains centrifugal force.
2. I see the "palm to the sky" predominately in pitches such as a palm up curve, off-speed palm up curve, and riseball. It is not as prevalent in the basic fastball/dropball release actions....these actions maintain more of a "palm facing third" (RHP) position....although like lots of things in pitching there are slight variates to this.
3. If a pitchers primary pitches are rise and palm up curve, they may perform some variation of the "palm to the sky" in all their pitches.

I agree it will rotate the arm the most and the fastest, the sticking point is "so what?" a figure skater rotates pretty fast, but stick a ball on her head and it ain't moving forward.

to be more specific, I see the speed being generated by the elbow bend that I/R allows and the fact that the natural motion of the arm is I/R, it is just this palm up leading to faster rotation and therefore faster speed that is confounding me. I do see one way where it would add speed and that is if the arm is still bent at release then there will be a moment arm created that the rotation can act upon to increase speed but it would be a really small moment arm in a windmill motion.

 

[Doug Romrell]

Couple observations/theories regarding the "palm to the sky"


1. I don't believe it is a movement that is "trained". It is more of a movement the body has figured out on its own to preposition the hand/wrist for the release action desired. Some of this may have to do with the grip and the ability or lack thereof to keep the ball from flying out of the hand as it gains centrifugal force.
2. I see the "palm to the sky" predominately in pitches such as a palm up curve, off-speed palm up curve, and riseball. It is not as prevalent in the basic fastball/dropball release actions....these actions maintain more of a "palm facing third" (RHP) position....although like lots of things in pitching there are slight variates to this.
3. If a pitchers primary pitches are rise and palm up curve, they may perform some variation of the "palm to the sky" in all their pitches.

Rick, Would you go as far as recommending the ball be more toward 3B (say between 12:00 and just prior to release) when throwing a "fastball/dropball"?

 

[Rick Pauly]

Well, my quick viewing of Cat and Sarah would suggest that. Sample size of two right now.....I'll see if that is what Abbott displays also since she is one of the fastest in the world....update later.e

Later....Abbott does a little move toward the "palm to the sky" on her curveball" and a very slight move on her dropball.....more ball facing 1st (LHP) than "palm to the sky"

Rick, Would you go as far as recommending the ball be more toward 3B (say between 12:00 and just prior to release) when throwing a "fastball/dropball"?

 

[Rocketech1]

Well, my quick viewing of Cat and Sarah would suggest that. Sample size of two right now.....I'll see if that is what Abbott displays also since she is one of the fastest in the world....update later.e

Later....Abbott does a little move toward the "palm to the sky" on her curveball" and a very slight move on her dropball.....more ball facing 1st (LHP) than "palm to the sky"

Then there is also this little Japanese pitcher that happens to get her "palm to the sky" at 9:00

Japanese Softball - YouTube

 

[Doug Romrell]

Boy, that "little Japanese pitcher" is the extreme of "I/R" and "brush interference," if you ask me!

 

[Sticks]

I want to add one thing. I like all you others dad embarked on this quest of helping our daughters become a pitcher. It can be a very frustrating process as we trust people who hang out a sign of "pitching instructor". But as we soon realize some aren't truly teachers. They also have different levels of knowledge. We had went through 4 instructors, when I stumbled on Jordan Reynolds from Olivet Nazarene university in Bourbonnais il. She is a assistant coach for coach richey the all time winningest coach in NAIA history. Jordan was a all American and has the all time home run record for Olivet even tho she's pretty petite. We were using her for a hitting coach, when she divulged she had been a pitcher in high school and had thrown in college for a year or two. My daughter had always struggled with velocity or lack there of! We had recently went to a new instructor and she revealed through video analysis, that my daughter had started spinning her foot on the mound and opening up to early...thus loosing velocity. A earlier instructor had hammered her for not getting sideways in her wind up and she started trying to do it so much, she started spinning her foot and getting sideways on the mound. We had various degrees of success trying to break the habit as I bought a "push box" to aid her in keeping her mound foot straight. But Jordan wanted her to demonstrate her wind up and look for any more basic flaws. One tip she gave us pushed her velocity to career highs and solved any hint of her mound foot ever turning!! She told us in her wind up a pitcher needs to have a load backwards before going forward, much like a hitter. Pitcher should start with toe in the hole of the mound, load wait backwards and pick up the toe several inches off the mound. It creates a rocking motion with momentum going back and forward. We owned a power drive and used correctly it emulates this for young pitchers to learn this momentum building trick. Start with the power drive in the down position, in the wind up shift weight back and the plare will click back then go forward. Obviously the power drive isn't a necessity to learn this trick, but helps. If you truly watch the mound foot of the quicker pitchers, you will see them pick up there toe on the mound!! After Jordan introduced us to this trick I went home and videotaped my daughters first attempts, hitting 50-53 mph, when she had been a 45-48 mph pitcher! I sent the video to her travel coach and soon got her first start for this team and threw a shut out against a team that went deep in Chicago metros!! Hope that helps someone!!

 

[FiveFrameSwing]