Pitching Absolutes

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Feb 7, 2013
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NOTE: based on feedback, I will edit this original post as necessary.

I wanted to start a thread on some absolutes in pitching mechanics. I have only been involved in fastpitch for five years but here is what I have learned to date:

Grip is very important, less skin on the ball equals faster pitch and greater spin. Finger pressure can effect spin direction.

Ball flight is always subjected to drag and gravity and as soon as the ball leaves the finger tips it starts losing speed and revolutions per second (RPS). Because of this fact, every pitch has some downward arc to it, some pitches with more arc (drop ball), some pitches with less arc (rise ball).

Release angle is an important concept and helps contribute to the effectiveness of the pitch. For example, one of the reasons a rise ball is an effective is pitch is that it is angled from low (at hip) to high (top of the strike zone) and the fact that it is the only pitch thrown with maximum velocity AND back spin, it doesn't arc downward as much as the batter would expect and they frequently swing under the ball.

Set-up, when standing on the pitching plate, the pivot and stride foot should be a comfortable length apart and the pivot on the front part of the plate and the stride foot on the back part of the plate creating maximum distance with both feet legally on the plate. The weight should be more the stride foot when the pitcher rocks back.

Pre-Delivery is stylistic, some pitchers bring the glove up over the head, some start the glove in the center of the body, others have the glove at their hip. Nevertheless, these per-motion routines are not absolutes in pitching but stylistic and don't contribute to better performance necessarily.

Backswing having a single pump or double pump backswing can help contribute to a faster pitch. Might have to do more with timing more than anything else. You want to load backwards before going forward. I know when my DD went from a double pump backswing to cradling the ball in the glove to the pitching hip side (e.g. like many in the men's game) she lost some velocity on the pitch. The bottom-line here is experiment with what works. Some of the benefits of the cradle are the grip on the ball is hidden longer and you can drive the glove and hand together down the powerline for better momentum.

Powerline you want as much momentum and body mass going down the powerline as possible. If you leak left or right, or stride too high or don't push out towards the catcher enough, you are leaking momentum and the velocity of the pitch will suffer. The powerline is not necessarily the center of the pitching plate to the center of home plate, but where the pitcher starts her set-up on the pitching plate.

The Stride you want to explode off the pitching plate and get as open as possible, making sure to drag the pivot along the ground with as little resistance as possible so not to slow the "leap" down. The stride foot should land on or around a 45 degree angle and all of the momentum generated should be resisted by this firm, front side. A lot of this energy will be distributed to the arm and ball. The hips and shoulders can close to home plate (45 degree) but you want to throw "through" the hip, not around it.

Arm Circle, you want the arm circle vertical (straight up and down when viewed from the catcher) throughout the pitch. The more you get off plane, the harder it is to get back on plane and leads to inconsistency.

Arm & Ball position, on the backswing and as the arm comes up the circle during the stride, the arm will be almost straight (but never locked). As the arm reaches 12:00, the ball will be facing towards the catcher or even more towards first base and the side of the bicep should brush the head or as close as possible. The arm should also have some bend in it at the top of the circle. As the arm approaches 9:00, the arm decelerates as it drops into the slot and the ball will be "palm to the sky" or as close as possible to this position for maximum whip. At this point, the elbow leads the arm, as the forearm, hand and ball internally rotate into 6:00 release. Prior to release, the forearm will brush the hip (See Brush Interference). Generating good arm whip can only be achieved by good internal rotation mechanics.

Brush Interference, "the arm....first upper arm stabilizing against the rib cage....then the forearm stabilizing against the throwing leg hip/thigh. It is not a collision, it is a brushing action followed by a rolling though of the arm. The degree of brush may vary from pitcher to pitcher but IMO the brush/contact should extend all the way down to within an inch or two of the wrist joint. This provides more stabilization and thus more consistent control and better overall transfer of energy" (Rick Pauly). Another way to look at this is the "hip should get into a position to receive the throwing arm" (Java).

The Finish, there has been lots of confusion that IR is about the finish of the pitch. However, the finish is just a result of getting good internal rotation upstream, prior to release. As long as the arm is not forced into a hello elbow or other unnatural position, the arm can finish loose and naturally somewhere across the body is fine. The finish is just the way the body protects itself by dissipating the energy and "violence" of the pitch after release. Similar to throwing a ball overhand, don't force the arm into an unnatural position, let it release to a natural finish.

Same Mechancis, in general all of the pitching mechanics should be nearly the same for every pitch. The only difference should be the grip and finger pressure and slight changes in mechanics that are difficult for the batter to pick up on. For example, to make a drop ball drop, you don't have to shorten your stride and lean forward more on the release, nor for a screwball do you have to jump to the left and throw to right, etc. Let the spin on the ball and release angle create the movement of the pitch. The follow through on the finish should be almost identical so as not to tip off the batter.

Pitching Stats, when analyzing pitching stats over a season, the following criteria is important in determining the effectiveness of a pitcher (Note: these are trends and correlations):

- Strikeout to Walk ratio - At a minimum it should be 2K per 1BB. The best pitchers have a 3-1 or greater ratio. A 1K per 1BB is normally an indicator of an ineffective pitcher.

- Strike% - the optimum strike % seems to be around 60-70% and once you get below 55%, you have an inconsistent pitcher that can't find the strike zone. Anything above 70% and you likely have a pitcher that gets hit pretty hard and frequently.

(Rick Pauly) 1. Strike%....at the upper levels quite often a pitch will be called intentionally to be missed, so in this case the ball should not be counted in the % calculation. In this type scenario a 70% ratio is the benchmark. The farther below 70%, the chances of giving up runs increases. Below 60% will often end in a poor result. If intentional misses are called it is not unusual for a good pitcher to be in the 75--76% range and the end result will likely be very good. 2. First pitch strike %.....this is as important as total strike %. Again, 70% is the benchmark.3. Location accuracy....with all the high tech video equipment at college ballparks today it is relatively easy to go back and document location accuracy....this is probably the most important stat cause as you know, a strike could be right in the fat part of the zone....great %/poor result. Location accuracy % in the range of 95% is good (this could actually include a pitch that didn't exactly hit the intended location but did miss in a less harmful location)...i.e/ Dropball outside....misses low or low and out.

- WHIP (Walks/Hits per Inning Pitched) - Pitchers with WHIP of 2.00 or lower are going to be fairly effective.

- Earned Run Average (ERA) - anything below 2.50 is good, below 1.50 is great.

- Pitches Per Inning (PPI) - Another indicator of an effective pitcher is the number of pitches thrown per inning. Below 15 PPI is good, ineffective pitchers have 20+.

- Opponents Batting Average - You want to keep your opponents batting average below .250.

Other Thoughts

The four-seam fastball is essentially the peel drop just thrown low in the strike zone.

The standard change-up should be thrown hard but 20-30% slower than her fastest pitch.

Throwing a first pitch strike increases the chances that the batter will get out.

In general, moving the ball up and down (vertically) is better than left to right/right to left (horizontally)

Pitchers don't work on fielding their position as much as they should.

Less is more. "Mastering" 2 or 3 pitches is much preferred to "having" 5 or 6 pitches.

Most former college pitchers have no idea how they actually pitch but only regurgitate what they were told or teach what they think they do. not what they actually do.

You can't dabble in pitching and be effective at any competitive level. You either commit to it or chose another position.

Change of speed is a critical component and is often overlooked. The better you disrupt the batter's timing the more effective pitcher you will be.

The waste (chase) pitch should be one or two ball lengths out of the strike zone and is frequently used when well ahead in the count (e.g. 0-2, 1-2) to induce the batter to swing at a pitch out of the strike zone or as a set-up pitch.
 
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javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
Rocket,

This is a great post. I really wish there was a central repository for new bucket dads and moms to turn to on here. The search function is decent on here... but is not an absolute in any way.. that is... it doesn't really turn up the results you seek. I know some aren't buying in to the whole i/r thing... and that's fine... there could be a repository for them, too... lol sorry...

Couple of things... though... and know it's just my opinion.

1) I'd probably remove the part where the feet start shoulder width apart on the plate. I don't see this as an absolute, IMO. Try walking shoulder width apart... doesn't feel very natural... unless your heading to the lou... ;) You might start that way... but many stride much closer together... some further...

2) One concept I held on to for many years was the powerline. I think it causes confusion, and over analysis of it can lead to pitchers making assumptions that hurt their pitching mechanics. It's a simple concept, but the ball never travels on it... and many younger pitchers try to make that happen. Also, some pitchers use a variance off the center line to influence different pitches. Lastly, too many people think it's a line that goes from the center of the pitching plate to the center of the home plate...

3) The arm circle being vertical is not an absolute, IMO. A few pitches and techniques (screwball and brush interference, for example) will put the ball and circle behind the pitcher... Also, many left-right pitches thrown by pitchers see the ball coming up the front side at a negative (numerical) angle. If you watch a lot of top pitchers and put their arm circle against a vertical line... you'll see what I mean... I think it's a good learning concept... but physicality and type of pitch thrown usually morph that concept over time...

4) The arm & ball position is one I think could stand an edit... IMO... I never advocate the bicep brushing the head. IMO, it's physically impossible to face the ball towards home if the bicep is pointing towards first. In fact, I'd just say that the arm needs to be in a position where the bicep is oriented towards home. Also, the hook over the head is not always a lesser angle than the arm at 9. The hook is very important, but is often more of an angle than the arm at 9. Truthfully, there is an optimal angle (120-degrees) at 9, but many great pitchers vary with arm angle at this point. As long as the arm is loose... I think that's more important. You could also benefit from adding the importance of the deceleration of the upper arm as the ball reaches 9. IMO - that's the most important aspect to good arm whip. It is also the mechanic that saves the pitcher from excessive force on the shoulder complex.

5) Same Mechanics... this is another where I sorta scratched my head... The core fb mechanics do exist in every pitch, I agree. But... the i/r mechanics are typically timed differently. Also... the effect that spin has is influential, but the posture of the body and the angle of release are often what creates the confusion for the batter. I don't want this to be a source of contention at all - but there is a lot of visual evidence that suggests spin is only a part... not the whole...

Anyway... Like I said... I REALLY LIKE YOUR POST. Central sources of good information are important for sites like this.
 
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Feb 7, 2013
3,188
48
Rocket,

This is a great post. I really wish there was a central repository for new bucket dads and moms to turn to on here. The search function is decent on here... but is not an absolute in any way.. that is... it doesn't really turn up the results you seek. I know some aren't buying in to the whole i/r thing... and that's fine... there could be a repository for them, too... lol sorry...

Couple of things... though... and know it's just my opinion.

1) I'd probably remove the part where the feet start shoulder width apart on the plate. I don't see this as an absolute, IMO. Try walking shoulder width apart... doesn't feel very natural... unless your heading to the lou... ;) You might start that way... but many stride much closer together... some further...

2) One concept I held on to for many years was the powerline. I think it causes confusion, and over analysis of it can lead to pitchers making assumptions that hurt their pitching mechanics. It's a simple concept, but the ball never travels on it... and many younger pitchers try to make that happen. Also, some pitchers use a variance off the center line to influence different pitches. Lastly, too many people think it's a line that goes from the center of the pitching plate to the center of the home plate...

3) The arm circle being vertical is not an absolute, IMO. A few pitches and techniques (screwball and brush interference, for example) will put the ball and circle behind the pitcher... Also, many left-right pitches thrown by pitchers see the ball coming up the front side at a negative (numerical) angle. If you watch a lot of top pitchers and put their arm circle against a vertical line... you'll see what I mean... I think it's a good learning concept... but physicality and type of pitch thrown usually morph that concept over time...

4) The arm & ball position is one I think could stand an edit... IMO... I never advocate the bicep brushing the head. IMO, it's physically impossible to face the ball towards home if the bicep is pointing towards first. In fact, I'd just say that the arm needs to be in a position where the bicep is oriented towards home. Also, the hook over the head is not always a lesser angle than the arm at 9. The hook is very important, but is often more of an angle than the arm at 9. Truthfully, there is an optimal angle (120-degrees) at 9, but many great pitchers vary with arm angle at this point. As long as the arm is loose... I think that's more important. You could also benefit from adding the importance of the deceleration of the upper arm as the ball reaches 9. IMO - that's the most important aspect to good arm whip. It is also the mechanic that saves the pitcher from excessive force on the shoulder complex.

5) Same Mechanics... this is another where I sorta scratched my head... The core fb mechanics do exist in every pitch, I agree. But... the i/r mechanics are typically timed differently. Also... the effect that spin has is influential, but the posture of the body and the angle of release are often what creates the confusion for the batter. I don't want this to be a source of contention at all - but there is a lot of visual evidence that suggests spin is only a part... not the whole...

Anyway... Like I said... I REALLY LIKE YOUR POST. Central sources of good information are important for sites like this.

Thanks JS. I plan on updating this thread based on feedback and as necessary. A few responses and comments:

1) FEET - Will update that the feet should be at a comfortable distance apart for maximum push off the pitching plate;
2) POWERLINE - I still think there is a need to keep your body's momentum down this imaginary powerline. But the powerline should be based on where you start on the pitching plate, not necessarily from the middle of the pitching plate or to the center of home plate. I personally am not a supporter of striding left or right off the powerline based on the pitch thrown. Consistency and efficiency are important. Plus you are less likely to tip off the batter what pitch is coming based on different stride location.
3) VERTICAL CIRCLE - again, I think this is an ideal but rarely achieved. The point being that a near vertical arm circle as seen by the catcher is advantageous to for hitting locations consistently. The farther the arm circle get off plane, the more difficult you get the arm back on plane just prior to and at release.
4) ARM & BALL POSITION - IMO, I feel its very important to have the ball at least pointing to home plate at 12:00 and the bicep as close as possible to the head/ear so the you stay on line with the vertical circle. I agree with you that there is a deceleration (or lag) of the arm as it reaches 9:00 and the palm gets to as close as possible "to the sky" which is the start of the arm whip.
5) SAME MECHANICS - I believe in the concept that the goal is to make every pitch look almost identical as every other pitch to the extent possible. It's the slight variations to grip and finger pressure on most pitches that create the different spin. I really like how Hillhouse says the finish on his riseball, drop, and change-up are look about the same. Hitting is about reaction time and recognizing pitches and the later you give the batter the ability to detect a pitch, the better.

Thanks again for the great feedback, will review and edit the OP.:)
 
Dec 7, 2011
2,368
38
OK - At severe risk of being attacked I will say it anyways :

I truly belive this thread and many others like it are the result of the ole saying "paralysis by analysis".

I bring this up not to flare up anybody's dander but just to maybe have everybody think a bit about all the constraints we as guides to the rest of our DFP members say are "absolutes" to be good.

In my old age of supporting my DD this is very high on my list of "could of / should of". I WISH I would not have searched AND DRIVEN DD sooo hard for the holy grail of pitching mechanics.

For a long period I was a dad that said "DD - Do this, that, and the other thing,...while you are doing this one more important thing too".

I sooooo would have wished I wouldn't have waisted so much time on the minutia and basically wish I would have said MUCH more to DD - "Just get out there and throw the cover off that ball or Just spin that pitch so hard that it boomerangs back at ya"....

Seriously - I know I spun my DD's head off her neck during a period of her pitching career doing "paralysis by analysis" resulting in a counter-productive span.

Bottom line - do NOT forget the balance here....
 
Rocketech...great start. Everything I added down below is in hopes that this list will evolve into a narrow range of absolutes. Hope you will take all the input you are getting and boil it down and repost again and possibly again, etc.
Here are my quick thoughts on some of your items:



NOTE: based on feedback, I will edit this original post as necessary.

I wanted to start a thread on some absolutes in pitching mechanics. I have only been involved in fastpitch for five years but here is what I have learned to date:

Grip is very important, less skin on the ball equals faster pitch and greater spin. Finger pressure can effect spin direction.

Less skin on the ball probably doesn't mean greater spin. Less skin usually does equate to more speed.

Ball flight is always subjected to drag and gravity and as soon as the ball leaves the finger tips it starts losing speed and revolutions per second (RPS). Because of this fact, every pitch has some downward arc to it, some pitches with more arc (drop ball), some pitches with less arc (rise ball).

Very technical comment here..."has some downward arc to it if it is in the strike zone" Don't want the riseball people to get to worked up about this.








Release angle is an important concept and helps contribute to the effectiveness of the pitch. For example, one of the reasons a rise ball is an effective is pitch is that it is angled from low (at hip) to high (top of the strike zone) and the fact that it is the only pitch thrown with maximum velocity AND back spin, it doesn't arc downward as much as the batter would expect and they frequently swing under the ball.

You might get a bit of pushback 'cause a palm up curve has a slight rise axis to it.

Also, I think it is important to note that release angle can be both vertical and horizontal (curve/screwball for instance require some horizontal release angle....it is not all spin that you see in the movement.

Set-up, when standing on the pitching plate, the pivot and stride foot should be a comfortable length apart and the pivot on the front part of the plate and the stride foot on the back part of the plate creating maximum distance with both feet legally on the plate. The weight should be more the stride foot when the pitcher rocks back.

When the pitcher rocks back the weight shifts to the back foot then reshifts to the front foot as the pitcher makes the forward drive move.....sorta like walking into the pitch. This is really predominate in the men's game.



Pre-Delivery is stylistic, some pitchers bring the glove up over the head, some start the glove in the center of the body, others have the glove at their hip. Nevertheless, these per-motion routines are not absolutes in pitching but stylistic and don't contribute to better performance necessarily.

Stylistic attributes probably do add to the pitch performance....it is what makes a pitcher feel comfortable or get her timing. I agree because there are so many varied pre-motions they are not absolutes.

Backswing having a single pump or double pump backswing can help contribute to a faster pitch. Might have to do more with timing more than anything else. I know when my DD went from a double pump backswing to cradling the ball in the glove to the pitching hip side (e.g. like many in the men's game) she lost some velocity on the pitch. The bottom-line here is experiment with what works. Some of the benefits of the cradle are the grip on the ball is hidden longer and you can drive the glove and hand together down the powerline for better momentum.

Going to try to soften the blow here before Bill Hillhouse see's this one (sorry Bill).....I would not go so far as to suggest that a pitcher won't throw as fast using the Out of Glove motion.....when converting a backswinger to out of glove style there is likely to be a temporary drop in speed simply because of timing issues, but the speed usually comes back to where it was.

Powerline you want as much momentum and body mass going down the powerline as possible. If you leak left or right, or stride too high or don't push out towards the catcher enough, you are leaking momentum and the velocity of the pitch will suffer. The powerline is not necessarily the center of the pitching plate to the center of home plate, but where the pitcher starts her set-up on the pitching plate.

I use the term powerline often....but the term power alley might be a better way to describe it....this allows for a little variance. A lot of variance as you pointed out is typically not an efficient method of pitching.

The Stride you want to explode off the pitching plate and get as open as possible, making sure to drag the pivot along the ground with as little resistance as possible so not to slow the "leap" down. The stride foot should land on or around a 45 degree angle and all of the momentum generated should be resisted by this firm, front side. A lot of this energy will be distributed to the arm and ball. The hips and shoulders can close to home plate (45 degree) but you want to throw "through" the hip, not around it.

Rich Balswick had an interesting post to me regarding hips getting totally open (or as he suggested not getting totally open).....I am pondering that tip so can't comment on this one at this time.

Arm Circle, you want the arm circle vertical (straight up and down when viewed from the catcher) throughout the pitch. The more you get off plane, the harder it is to get back on plane and leads to inconsistency.

Arm & Ball position, on the backswing and as the arm comes up the circle during the stride, the arm will be almost straight (but never locked).
The arm probably should begin its bending process just as it passes 3 o'clock.


As the arm reaches 12:00, the ball will be facing towards the catcher or even more towards first base

Typically the ball/palm rotates just as it passes 12 o'clock and faces third base (RHP)

and the side of the bicep should brush the head or as close as possible. The arm should also have some bend in it at the top of the circle. As the arm approaches 9:00, the arm decelerates

The upper arm decelerates as it makes contact with the ribcage side

as it drops into the slot and the ball will be "palm to the sky" or as cloase as possible to this position for maximum whip. At this point, the elbow leads the arm, as the forearm, hand and ball internally rotate into 6:00 release. Prior to release, the forearm will brush the hip (brush interference). Generating good arm whip can only be achieved by good internal rotation mechanics.

Of course I am a big I/R proponent.....a little word smithing might say..."Arm whip is enhanced using internal rotation mechanics".

The Finsh, there has been lots of confusion that IR is about the finish of the pitch. However, the finish is just a result of getting good internal rotation upstream, prior to release. As long as the arm is not forced into a hello elbow or other unnatural position, the arm can finish loose and naturally somewhere across the body is fine. The finish is just the way the body protects itself by dissipating the energy and "violence" of the pitch after release. Similar to throwing a ball overhand, don't force the arm into an unnatural position, let it release to a natural finish.

Same Mechancis, in general all of the pitching mechanics (from 12 o'clock to just prior to release....might be a little increase in the intent of this statement.)

should be nearly the same for every pitch. The only difference should be the grip and finger pressure and slight changes in mechanics that are difficult for the batter to pick up on. For example, to make a drop ball drop, you don't have to shorten your stride and lean forward more on the release, nor for a screwball do you have to jump to the left and throw to right, etc.

Agree on the stride....should be the same length/energy for every pitch.

There are two primary body postures/spine angle at time of release.....roughly 6-8 degrees behind vertical for high/rising pitches and 2-0 degrees behind vertical for low/dropping pitches. These postures help set up the desired release angle.

Let the spin on the ball and release angle create the movement of the pitch. The follow through on the finish should be almost identical so as not to tip off the batter.

I'd go back to your earlier statement about follow through......just let the naturally unloading create the follow through. The initial follow thru just after release will probably be different based on the type of pitch thrown.....fortunately that part of the follow thru happens so quickly the human eye doesn't pick it up.

Other Thoughts

The four-seam fastball is essentially the peel drop just thrown low in the strike zone.

The standard change-up should be thrown hard but 20-30% slower than her fastest pitch.

Throwing a first pitch strike increases the chances that the batter will get out.

In general, moving the ball up and down (vertically) is better than left to right/right to left (horizontally)

Pitchers don't work on fielding their position as much as they should.

Less is more. "Mastering" 2 or 3 pitches is much preferred to "having" 5 or 6 pitches.

Most former college pitchers have no idea how they actually pitch but only regurgitate what they were told or teach what they think they do. not what they actually do.

You can't dabble in pitching and be effective at any competitive level. You either commit to it or chose another position.

Change of speed is a critical component and is often overlooked. The better you disrupt the batter's timing the more effective pitcher you will be.
 
Feb 7, 2013
3,188
48
OK - At severe risk of being attacked I will say it anyways :

I truly belive this thread and many others like it are the result of the ole saying "paralysis by analysis".

I bring this up not to flare up anybody's dander but just to maybe have everybody think a bit about all the constraints we as guides to the rest of our DFP members say are "absolutes" to be good.

In my old age of supporting my DD this is very high on my list of "could of / should of". I WISH I would not have searched AND DRIVEN DD sooo hard for the holy grail of pitching mechanics.

For a long period I was a dad that said "DD - Do this, that, and the other thing,...while you are doing this one more important thing too".

I sooooo would have wished I wouldn't have waisted so much time on the minutia and basically wish I would have said MUCH more to DD - "Just get out there and throw the cover off that ball or Just spin that pitch so hard that it boomerangs back at ya"....

Seriously - I know I spun my DD's head off her neck during a period of her pitching career doing "paralysis by analysis" resulting in a counter-productive span.

Bottom line - do NOT forget the balance here....

Agree. there is a balance between stressing solid mechanics vs. a "grip it & rip it" mentality. In general, DFP helps parents, players, and coaches take their game up a notch. I know with my DD, if she did not have a solid PC and didn't practice solid mechanics with good fundamentals, she would not be an effective pitcher at the competitive level. Hopefully there are some good reference points located in this thread that might help someone trying to navigate the many pitching concepts proffered in this forum?
 
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