Shoulder position at release?

[ArmWhip]

The right handed pitcher in this game shows similar moves, both pitchers show how a typical men's pitcher throws the ball. One particular move interests me, the body lean and more importantly the shoulder tilt at release. Tilting the shoulder like this allows the deltoid muscles to be more involved and I think this can be a significant factor in adding velocity.

And one other thing, at the end of the slo-mo video of Folkard you can get a good look at his riseball spin.

 

[4Martini]

Am I seeing a bit of the monkey butt that everyone tries to avoid? Definitely interesting to compare.

 

[Hillhouse]

If you ever give this talk in the NE let me know and I'll attend. I don't recall seeing video of your motion so I can't comment on your comparisons. I looked around for slo-mo video of men's fastpitch pitchers and I found this on Rick Pauly's site, it's Adam Folkard. He may be on the extreme end of the spectrum but his mechanics contain the same characteristics that I see in the majority of the men's fastpitch pitchers in the tournaments posted on line.




These are the things that catch my eye and differ from what I see with most women pitchers.

At 9 o'clock;
he is already fully open, so are his hips, when his hips are open fully I think his belt buckle points back to the SS.

Both feet are off the ground and his back leg is beginning to swing over toward first base.

At landing he is tilted back and also to the right, his push off leg has swung heavily toward first base.

At release he is still mostly open, he makes this work because he is leaning back and strongly tilted to the right and his hips are still mostly open, otherwise the ball/hand wouldn't clear the hips.

After release, because he so strongly tilted, he lurches to the right.

Also, at no time does his glove/arm get left of the power line (I hate that term).

Here is another Folkard video, if you want to view it in slo-mo go the settings on the bottom of the screen and change the playback speed to .25.

I know Adam very well. In fact, he stayed with me at my house for a few summers despite us being on arch rival teams. So, I'm more than familiar with him.

For a stretch of time, Folkard was absolutely unhittable. He is the fastest pitcher that I ever saw on a radar gun, 87mph. (which is makes the claims that Eddie Feigner-King and his court pitched 104mph absolutely laughable). But, Folkard also has had some major shoulder injuries. In the last 10 years or so, he's been unable to compete a few different times at the annual world championship because his arm/shoulder. For some reason I have it in my head he's missed about 3 of the last 10 championships due to shoulder problems, including this last year 2023.

Now, I have my own theories as to why he's had such issues. And I think you're right, Adam wouldn't be the model I'd use when comparing men's and women's pitchers. Despite his ability to throw harder than anyone, all of that becomes void if the delivery creates injuries that make him unable to compete. He's a good example of what I was saying before about men being able to throw extremely hard despite not having mechanics that I would want to teach a young lady.

I'll say this for him too, we'd monkey around and play catch sometimes just to turn our arms over for a little bit. Not only the the ball disappear into his hand (he has monster hands) but I've never seen anyone spin as tight as he could. It sounds like a swam of bees coming at you, hearing the seams sizzle through the air.

 

[Hillhouse]

If you ever give this talk in the NE let me know and I'll attend. I don't recall seeing video of your motion so I can't comment on your comparisons. I looked around for slo-mo video of men's fastpitch pitchers and I found this on Rick Pauly's site, it's Adam Folkard. He may be on the extreme end of the spectrum but his mechanics contain the same characteristics that I see in the majority of the men's fastpitch pitchers in the tournaments posted on line.

I understand what you mean. As I've said before, being a male doesn't automatically give someone correct mechanics for pitching. In fact, I'd say the opposite. Because of sheer strength guys can afford to not have great mechanics and still get the results.

Similar to how some of the more renowned women's pitchers can get away with doing some things because they're 6'1, 6'2, etc. For a good stretch of time, I had a lot of new students that would come to me wanting to do the Monica Abbott bend forward prior to her backswing. They don't realize that sometimes pitchers can be good despite what they do, not because of it. It's scary to think of how much harder Abbott could've thrown if she didn't start in that bend forward position. I believe she could've added significant power had she done her little bend forward that she likes, but then come back to the tall, erect position before her arm swing. This would allow for her top 1/2 of her body to really load her legs with more weight transfer and momentum. She'd have achieved a ton more leg drive power by allowing her top 1/2 to load her bottom 1/2, IMO. Anyway, I'd get a lot of 10u-12u pitchers who'd try to do that bend without understanding they're losing power and don't have the size to copy what they see someone on TV doing.

 

[daywalkerdad]

I think comes down to what is the same vs different.
I am no golf expert but from what I understand if you compare a women’s swing to the men’s, you can overlay it and come to conclusion they are basically the same. If you slow it down get really deep it is my understanding there are some slight differences. So one could argue both.

For the pitching difference Fundamentally I would guess they are the same with regards to armpath, but would imagine slight variations.

The main question I would have is trying to do anything athletically with a dragging toe vs ball of the foot would seem to cause variations. Probably a bad example but Imagine if a hitter had to keep the left or right toe turned up and on the ground. The hitter would probably be able to mimic key points of the swing, but might be different in weight shift, rotation, to generate power etc.

 

[daywalkerdad]

Attaching 3 more videos it looks like all 3 are using shoulder and hip rotation to the closed position to accelerate the whip that finishes shoulder high. Am I missing something? Should they be decelerating the shoulders with a lower whip?

 

[kibadbo]

 

[PJR202]

Every pitcher I've seen who throws with the shoulders in line with 2B/Home is throwing with a completely straight arm and shrugging both shoulders. Like an extreme hello elbow.

 

[Hillhouse]

Curious what makes Rocha the best pitching coach in the country, as it says.

 

[kibadbo]

Curious what makes Rocha the best pitching coach in the country, as it says.

I screwed up the post and couldn't comment, but I was wondering the same thing. I was also curious about the exaggerated shoulder move.