Pauley vs Tincher

[ArmWhip]

So I just went and looked at Cagle. A little monkey butt and not a lot of BI if there's any at all.

 

[CoachYodaD]

I think we can all agree that pitching is difficult to do, and more so, the higher in level you go. The human body is an amazing machine and it's ability to adapt is what made the human, the most dominate specie on the planet.

We are always going to have exceptions to the norm. These exceptions are often created by huge amounts of practice and time. We have seen it happen in all sports. Again, with enough time and work, the human body can be trained to be successful without having to do the "traditional way".

In fastpitch pitching, we can all agree on some things. We need a good arm circle. We need a "feel" of a release point. We need to engage the whole body to be effective. I think we can all agree that the majority of the best pitchers use some form of BI and IR. Yes, we can find exceptions, but again, they are a minority in direct comparison.

My understanding of being able to accomplish BI and IR is this.
The upper arm (bicep/triceps) should come in contact with the torso which causes the lower arm to accelerate faster than the original arm circle. This is not BI. BI is when the elbow brushes past the rib cage or the forearm grazes the hip. It is usually here that the pitcher begins her release. IR is where the forearm rotates toward the body aiding in the the acceleration of the ball as it leaves the hand. The deceleration of the upper portion of the arm, combined with the rotation of the forearm create what is often called her as the "whip". Depending upon the pitcher, more or less BI will happen dependent upon the pitch. I suspect (don't have solid proof) that curve balls would generate more BI whereas screwballs would generate less with a right-handed pitcher.

 

[texasheat]

Ok so forgive me but this contradicts the definition you give in the BI Sticky in which you say "Brush interference is contact of the throwing arm with the hip prior to release". https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/brush-inteference.24862/

This is what is confusing me. Based on your definition in the Sticky thread, the only part of the arm that can serve as the trigger is the lower arm (the arm below the elbow) since it is physiologically impossible for a girl to have a humerus that extends below her hip. So when you talk about the upper arm, as you do in the above post, it's contradictory. This is why I give you pics of pitchers whose forearm is clearly not in contact with their hip as evidence of high level pitchers who don't do BI but am still confused when you say they are using brush. By your own definition in the Sticky, they are not using brush. So it seems as if you are moving the goalposts on your definition of brush. Hence my responses.

Nothing to help clarify things @sluggers ?

 

[sluggers]

Nothing to help clarify things @sluggers ?

FYI: Over the weekend, I flew to Chicago...I enjoyed some time with my DD, went to Wrigley and watched Cubs-Pirates game, ate same great Chicago pizza, and drank a couple of beers. That was quite a bit more fun than moderating DFP.

But...you are talking a post that was written six years ago. If you go back farther, you can find posts where I advocated HE. I suppose you will pull one of those out next time I say kids should throw IR.

In the last six years, I watched hundreds of videos and talked to people about BI. So, yes, we know more about it now than we did six years ago.

What stuck with me was that Rick said when he recruited kids for college, he avoided kids without BI like the plague. He said kids without BI have inconsistent control and are almost impossible to fix.

After that conversation, I witnessed a very talented kid have extensive problems because of BI. Some days she would be on, and would pitch like a champ. Some days she would lose it and couldn't find the plate. I want kids to succeed and have fun pitching. I want parents to be able to teach their DDs to throw and enjoy it. I don't care if a kid is throwing Rec ball, for *HER* it is the Olympics.

As to BI, I've written this probably twenty times by now. If you don't understand what I am saying by now, it is hopeless.

But, one more time:

The over whelming evidence is that there are two things going on with BI. Almost all pitchers brush their arm against the body. A few pitchers move the arm is as tightly as possible to block as well as brush.

You can teach your kid or students to what 99.9% of the top pitchers do, or you can hope your kid is that one in a thousand who can do it without BI.

 

[texasheat]

But...you are talking a post that was written six years ago. If you go back farther, you can find posts where I advocated HE. I suppose you will pull one of those out next time I say kids should throw IR.

In the last six years, I watched hundreds of videos and talked to people about BI. So, yes, we know more about it now than we did six years ago.

So to be clear, are your saying that your definition of BI has now changed to the upper arm brushing the torso?

Because that makes BI much less special. It makes it essentially an anatomical function, seeing as though it is impossible for a pitcher to throw a legal underhand pitch without the upper arm brushing the torso. You are basically saying that everyone already does it so there is really nothing to teach. BI is simply a result of a legal windmill pitch by your definition unless a pitcher has severe lean to 3B.

 

[Ken B]

“Pauley vs Tincher?” First off, there is no “e” In Pauly. If I had to pick one, it would be Pauly. Rick is transparent about what he teaches. There are no trade secrets. If I knew more about Tincher, I might offer a different preference. I’m a little put off by the lack of emphasis on spin orientation with Tincher. That baffles me...

Forearm brush? I’m a definite believer. Over and over I’ve seen the eyes of the pitcher, bucket parent and coach light up when the big three come together: posture, whip and brush.

Good posture and whip almost always result in some degree of forearm brush. Are there exceptions?

Almost every elite pitcher uses (used) varying degrees of forearm brush. Most of the greatest of all time brush all the way down to the hand. Is brush an absolute? Carda and Barnhill have proven it is not. Is it beneficial, or even advantageous? I believe it is.

With good whip and posture, brush is often a byproduct. I believe forearm brush creates a consistent release point, improved control, higher spin rates and possibly improved speed.

Forearm brush might be better described as a roll or wrap of the forearm around the thigh, just below the hip bone.

The upper arm pulls the lower arm/ball down the backside of the circle. Both the forearm and ball are pulled down in a lagged position (palm upish.). As the upper arm pauses/compresses against the ribs, the whole unit begins to internally rotate. The forearm (the soft area just below the elbow) first touches behind the hip bone then the forearm wraps, or rolls around the upper thigh. This roll around the thigh assists/triggers the rapid rotation of the forearm.

There is no doubt that a few pitchers have been successful without, but I believe they are of the top 1% of the genetically gifted who will find excellence regardless.

 

[sluggers]

You are basically saying that everyone already does it so there is really nothing to teach. BI is simply a result of a legal windmill pitch by your definition unless a pitcher has severe lean to 3B.

Using your logic, IR doesn't have to be taught because all the good pitchers do it. also don't have to teach leg drive because all the pitcher do it anyway. In fact, according to you, you don't have to teach anything, because all the good pitchers do it already.

Once again, BI is a function of good posture. You can't have Bi without good posture.

Lack of BI can become a problem when the girl hits puberty. Some girls try to avoid their hips by "monkee butting" or by not sufficiently closing their hips.

Lack of BI can occur when the kid tries to learn the screwball.

There are videos on Youtube where the pitching instructor suggests that the kids not hit their body when they throw.

In college, my DD's coach tried to teach her not to hit her hip when she threw. My DD, however, told the coach that she had to "stand tall" when she pitched, and never stopped BI.

 

[texasheat]

Using your logic, IR doesn't have to be taught because all the good pitchers do it. also don't have to teach leg drive because all the pitcher do it anyway. In fact, according to you, you don't have to teach anything, because all the good pitchers do it already.

Once again, BI is a function of good posture. You can't have Bi without good posture.

Lack of BI can become a problem when the girl hits puberty. Some girls try to avoid their hips by "monkee butting" or by not sufficiently closing their hips.

Lack of BI can occur when the kid tries to learn the screwball.

There are videos on Youtube where the pitching instructor suggests that the kids not hit their body when they throw.

In college, my DD's coach tried to teach her not to hit her hip when she threw. My DD, however, told the coach that she had to "stand tall" when she pitched, and never stopped BI.

So to be clear, are your saying that your definition of BI has now changed to the upper arm brushing the torso?

You keep side stepping this for some reason, even though it is essentially the basis of our discussion, which if I could remind folks, was whether or not BI, which i thought was forearm brushing the hip as you previously defined it, was absolutely necessary in order to be accurate. If your definition has in fact changed, most of this was all for naught.

 

[sluggers]

If your definition has in fact changed, most of this was all for naught.

As my grandmother said, naught and naught is naught, although in Arksansas it is pronounced "ought".

 

[texasheat]

As my grandmother said, naught and naught is naught, although in Arksansas it is pronounced "ought".

and yet still no answer. Lol.............