Need some help

[fanboi22]

My daughters pitching coach is teaching her the drop ball. It’s a turn over drop. She is having a hard time not leaning over to throw the pitch and ends up releasing the ball high. Any help would be appreciated

Have been trying to have DD work on her change up which ‘style’ doesn’t necessarily matter but having her try and have all
Mechanics the same until 9 o’clock palm up on the backside. Right after 9 o’clock trying to have her start IR early to be able to ‘throw the glass of water’ change up as her hand turns and shows the back of the hand to catcher just after release.

I mention this because in doing this, when she misses the change up it usually resulted with something in between fastball 7-1 yaw style pitch and a ‘later’ release with near perfect 12-6 spin but not enough to get around to the change up.

It is terrible as a bucket dad thinking your DD is trying to pitch a 45 mph change up and zinging in a 60 mph drop ball.

She never had much of a drop ball until trying to get back to her original change up form. The happy result of not getting the change was an awesome drop. Created by a little early form IR. I never knew how to teach the drop so it was just an afterthought. Work on fast and change. Now her drop is her favorite pitch. Oh well sometimes better to be lucky than good.

 

[Hillhouse]

That doesn't make any sense.

In order for a dropball to drop more than the fastball, the ball has to have more spin. That is physics. You can see this at any ping pong or tennis match....every HS tennis player knows that the more top spin s/he puts on a tennis ball, the more the ball dives.

Some softball pitchers have dramatically more spin on the drop ball than the fastball. My DD was getting 28RPS on her drop versus 14RPS on her fastball.

Releasing the ball earlier just makes it a high fastball. If a pitcher has a good riseball, a high fastball with tight 12-6 spin would be effective. But, that doesn't make it a drop ball.

The whole "4 seam will make the ball move more" in the context of Magnus force pitches is a myth.

As an FYI, my DD threw neither a "4 seam" nor "2 seam" drop. Her grip put her middle finger on a seam, which increased the force she could apply on the ball.

Has to spin more? That's my point, it's the SAME pitch. Why would anyone want to throw one that doesn't move? I just don't get it. I try to put max spin on every pitch. I cannot understand why anyone would throw ANY pitch without trying to put as much spin on it as possible for whatever direction they want the ball to move. And if you think there is a "difference" then that plays right into what I'm saying about how people tend to overcomplicate it. Do an informal poll here: how many dad's here will attest that a good portion of their DD's "fastballs" actually have a drop effect to them? I'm betting a lot. I'm betting the majority. And when they realize how simple it is to make that drop break regularly and work on the sharpness of it, it's a lightbulb moment for a pitcher.

I'm not going to debate you about the benefits of 4 vs. 2 seams on a drop. But, even if you don't believe 4 seams moves more then there's another benefit: a hitter can see a 2 seam pitch much easier than a 4 seam pitch. 2 seams is a very loose rotation that is 10x easier to see at the plate than 4 seams. So, in an attempt to hide the pitch as much as possible, 4 seams is much harder to distinguish at the plate than 2 seams is.

 

[Gags]

My DD was getting 28RPS on her drop versus 14RPS on her fastball.

That seems like a huge difference - was she able to get the same 12-6 spin on both pitches? And the speed of both were similar?

 

[uncdrew]

My DD's fastball moves away from a right-handed hitter. It's kinda cool. Not sure what's she's doing to cause that.

 

[sluggers]

After giving this some thought to this, it seems @Hillhouse and I are saying the same thing about throwing a drop. Bill has found a much simpler way to teach it.

I say that the speed of the IR has to increase for a drop.

Bill says, "Turning your "fastball" into your drop is as simple as teaching the release to be at or before the back leg.." So, the pitcher is releasing the ball earlier for a drop than a fastball. Bill also says that, other than the earlier release motion doesn't change.

Why are those two the same thing?

Suppose a pitcher follows perfect IR and has the ball up at 9. At release for any pitch, the palm has to be facing home plate (otherwise, the ball won't be close to the plate.) The palm has to rotate 90 degrees from ball up at 9 to release.

Bill says that for a drop, the pitcher should release the ball earlier. If the pitcher releases the ball earlier, then the amount of time the palm took to rotate 90 degrees is less...which means that the rotational speed of the arm increased.

So, basically, Bill and I are saying the same thing, only using different approach.

 

[sluggers]

Has to spin more? That's my point, it's the SAME pitch. Why would anyone want to throw one that doesn't move?

You asked. So, I'll give you two good reasons:

1) The coach doesn't give two ___ts how much the ball moves, how fast you throw a ball, whether you use IR or HE, or the color underwear you have on. The coach only cares about outs.

How do you get outs? By making the good batter adjust his/her swing plane, preferably "on the fly". If a batter can use the same swing plane for every pitch, the batter will eventually get to the pitcher. (Ted Williams wrote all about changing swing planes based on whether the pitch was a fastball or a curve.)

If you throw nothing but 30RPS drop balls, batters will murder you. Why? The swing plane is always the same.

2) How about the umpire is not calling low strikes? Are you going to keep walking batters? Maybe at your level, the umpires have perfect strike zones...but, at the NCAA level and below, the zones more from ump to ump, and sometimes from inning to inning.

3) When you want the batter to chase a pitch of the zone, you throw a simple fastball.

I just don't get it. I try to put max spin on every pitch. I cannot understand why anyone would throw ANY pitch without trying to put as much spin on it as possible for whatever direction they want the ball to move.

MLB pitchers throw fastballs more than 50% of the time. So, none of those guys know how to pitch?

how many dad's here will attest that a good portion of their DD's "fastballs" actually have a drop effect to them?

Daddies also see their kids throwing screwballs, riseballs, curves, slurves, curises, and "pitches that break two different directions". I'm not sure Daddies are a real good population for statistical studies.

And when they realize how simple it is to make that drop break regularly and work on the sharpness of it

Honestly, this is the one that really frosts me. Now you are saying that there is more to the pitch than what you are describing. Now, the pitcher has to work on the "sharpness" of the break.

I understand exactly what you mean... the pitcher has to increase the spin on the ball, otherwise the ball doesn't break enough.

Which gets us right back to "the pitcher has to increase the spin on the ball."

So, in an attempt to hide the pitch as much as possible, 4 seams is much harder to distinguish at the plate than 2 seams is.

I agree with you. It makes the ball fuzzy. On Magnus force pitches, 4 seams vs. 2 seams doesn't matter.

 

[sluggers]

That seems like a huge difference - was she able to get the same 12-6 spin on both pitches? And the speed of both were similar?

Yes, she was able to get perfect 12-6 spin if she wanted to. It usually doesn't matter if the spin is perfect...as long as the ball is moving. The only time when she "had" to have perfect 12-6 spin is if she was throwing a high drop for a strike...because if the ball didn't move a lot going to the plate, the ball would be moving real fast right back at her.

Her FB was about 2MPH faster than her drop. You had to have a speed gun to detect the difference. But, she was not clocked much in college.

By the by, it is not that much of a difference. Parents don't know how good "good hitters" really are in college.

 

[Bonesaw]

MLB pitchers throw fastballs more than 50% of the time. So, none of those guys know how to pitch?

I think this is a misnomer, "fastball". Spin is very important for a 4 seam fastball in baseball. It really is a movement pitch. It doesnt appear to move just because of angles and spin. But It decieves the batters brain by not falling as much as the brain thinks it should. Just like a "riseball", it's the reason justin verlander still dominates being on the wrong end of 30. He has ridiculous spin on his fastball.

There is a sort of a big controversy in the MLB about spin rates on fastballs. Trevor bauer in particular has been the champion. (It involves grip aids/foreign sunstances) Bauer pretty much admits to starting using stuff which jumps his spin rate from average to #1. Got him a cy young and 40 mil a year from the dodgers.







EDIT: I think this falls in line with Bill's "you should be spinning everything as much as possible" idea

 

[ArmWhip]

Her FB was about 2MPH faster than her drop.

I don't want to get anything started but what was the spin on her 'fastball'? And, it seems to me that you would have IR on a rollover drop as well as on a 'conventional' one so what needs to be clarified is where the fingers are pointing at release. In a regular drop the ball would roll off the finger tips which are pointing down, in a rollover the fingers are pointing toward 3rd base and the 4th or the pinky finger would be the last to come off the ball.

 

[765Seth]

I am fairly new to this, but I think I heard @Hillhouse say in a video that fastpitch is just an overhand motion flipped upside down. Someone else posted a picture of dots and lines on a forearm that sticks in my head also. Finger pressure and finger location on the ball helped me move a ball around when I was chucking it. Wouldn't this be the same in fastpitch, then add what part of the forearm is brushing to aid in turning the ball over or taking speed off the ball?