Need some help

[jdint]

Sam Show had a Facebook live with Matt Lisle a couple of weeks ago. When they talked about pitching, she said she threw a fastball quite often. She also said it's a very common pitch in college......and she also said the 'screwball' is stupid (maybe not in those exact words).

 

[sluggers]

in a rollover the fingers are pointing toward 3rd base and the 4th or the pinky finger would be the last to come off the ball.

The pitch you are describing doesn't exist. I've looked at every drop ball video I can find...Osterman, Finch, Pauly, Folkard, Hillhouse, Matsuda, and so many TB and collegiate pitchers I can't even count. No one throws it that way.

It is helpful to stop thinking in terms of "peel" or "rollover" . The two types of drops are HE drop and an IR drop.

The HE drop has the arm coming up in the characteristic "L" shape. You can find a dozen videos on youtube describing this pitch. Very few pitchers throw it this way...Osterman has a video saying that is how she throws it, but she doesn't throw it much that way during games.

The IR drop increases the speed of the internal rotation, thereby increasing the spin on the ball--resulting in the weird looking follow through. The IR drop is the one most pitchers throw.

The best slow motion video of an IR drop is of Matsuda, one of the best male Japanese softball pitchers.



Here is Folkard throwing an IR drop:

 

[ArmWhip]

It is helpful to stop thinking in terms of "peel" or "rollover" . The two types of drops are HE drop and an IR drop.

Then what is the purpose of the drill that you posted of your daughter? It's high quality video, you can pause it and plainly see that she's rolling over the ball and the 3rd, 4th and pinky fingers are applying the spin, vs having the ball 'roll down' the fingers and come off the tips.

 

[Hillhouse]

You asked. So, I'll give you two good reasons:

1) The coach doesn't give two ___ts how much the ball moves, how fast you throw a ball, whether you use IR or HE, or the color underwear you have on. The coach only cares about outs.

How do you get outs? By making the good batter adjust his/her swing plane, preferably "on the fly". If a batter can use the same swing plane for every pitch, the batter will eventually get to the pitcher. (Ted Williams wrote all about changing swing planes based on whether the pitch was a fastball or a curve.)

If you throw nothing but 30RPS drop balls, batters will murder you. Why? The swing plane is always the same.

2) How about the umpire is not calling low strikes? Are you going to keep walking batters? Maybe at your level, the umpires have perfect strike zones...but, at the NCAA level and below, the zones more from ump to ump, and sometimes from inning to inning.

3) When you want the batter to chase a pitch of the zone, you throw a simple fastball.



MLB pitchers throw fastballs more than 50% of the time. So, none of those guys know how to pitch?



Daddies also see their kids throwing screwballs, riseballs, curves, slurves, curises, and "pitches that break two different directions". I'm not sure Daddies are a real good population for statistical studies.



Honestly, this is the one that really frosts me. Now you are saying that there is more to the pitch than what you are describing. Now, the pitcher has to work on the "sharpness" of the break.

I understand exactly what you mean... the pitcher has to increase the spin on the ball, otherwise the ball doesn't break enough.

Which gets us right back to "the pitcher has to increase the spin on the ball."



I agree with you. It makes the ball fuzzy. On Magnus force pitches, 4 seams vs. 2 seams doesn't matter.

You asked. So, I'll give you two good reasons:

1) The coach doesn't give two ___ts how much the ball moves, how fast you throw a ball, whether you use IR or HE, or the color underwear you have on. The coach only cares about outs.

How do you get outs? By making the good batter adjust his/her swing plane, preferably "on the fly". If a batter can use the same swing plane for every pitch, the batter will eventually get to the pitcher. (Ted Williams wrote all about changing swing planes based on whether the pitch was a fastball or a curve.)

If you throw nothing but 30RPS drop balls, batters will murder you. Why? The swing plane is always the same.

2) How about the umpire is not calling low strikes? Are you going to keep walking batters? Maybe at your level, the umpires have perfect strike zones...but, at the NCAA level and below, the zones more from ump to ump, and sometimes from inning to inning.

3) When you want the batter to chase a pitch of the zone, you throw a simple fastball.



MLB pitchers throw fastballs more than 50% of the time. So, none of those guys know how to pitch?



Daddies also see their kids throwing screwballs, riseballs, curves, slurves, curises, and "pitches that break two different directions". I'm not sure Daddies are a real good population for statistical studies.



Honestly, this is the one that really frosts me. Now you are saying that there is more to the pitch than what you are describing. Now, the pitcher has to work on the "sharpness" of the break.

I understand exactly what you mean... the pitcher has to increase the spin on the ball, otherwise the ball doesn't break enough.

Which gets us right back to "the pitcher has to increase the spin on the ball."



I agree with you. It makes the ball fuzzy. On Magnus force pitches, 4 seams vs. 2 seams doesn't matter.

All I'm telling you is, this is what I (and did all my life) to throw a dropball. My spin was always 12/6 so if I was struggling with movement, I always went back to my release point to get it dropping.

1. you're right, of sorts, that coaches only care about outs. But it's also their job to produce results if the pitcher is failing with her job. So, knowing what's wrong and how to fix it becomes important just like getting outs does.

2. How about an umpire that doesn't call the outside corner? Should I not throw it to both sides of the plate? There's nothing you can do about an umpire with a bad zone. And if the ball is dropping to low for it to be a strike then yes the pitcher needs to make an adjustment to get the ball into the zone. However, taking movement off the pitch for it to be thrown straight isn't what I'd call a solution. I'm not sure anyone would think that. A good pitcher's job is to throw strikes with all their pitches within the umpire's zone. Good pitchers adjust and adapt. I wouldn't abandon my dropball because the umpire wasn't calling it.

3. I disagree with this point wholeheartedly. I will never purposely throw a fastball.

Yes, MLB'ers throw fastballs. They are also on a hill 10 inches above homeplate when they throw any pitch. So, from their starting place they are going to have vertical movement regardless of what they are throwing. They are also throwing 100mph legitimately while hitters are using a MINIMUM 30 ounce bat.

Of course a pitcher has to work on the sharpness of the break. That doesn't go without saying? Just because I think a lot of people over complicate the drop pitch and what is needed (or not needed) to make it drop, doesn't mean someone can get lazy when throwing it. Or else you end up with that flat dropball that doesn't go down (fastball) which ends up in the parking lot with polycore balls and composite bats.

I don't disagree that many dad's falsely believe their kid has 6 pitches or more. And that fallacy is reinforced everytime they hear 2 time Olympic Gold Medalist Michele Smith talk about the pitcher at XYZ University who has 6 pitches. But I'm not talking about them falsely believing in a pitch that doesn't exist. I'm talking about one that is there which they didn't even realize was there. I still firmly believe that the majority of dad's who's kid is throwing a "fastball" have probably realized that it drops and they didn't realize how it happened, as if it was an accident. If they only realized that that little drop break they had could and should be increased. And that can happen naturally without a change in mechanics or adding unnecessary movements.

Usually when a pitch has 2 seams or a rotation that is not very tight, people characterize it as someone throwing a "heavy ball". I never liked batting off guys who threw a heavy ball.

 

[fanboi22]

Then what is the purpose of the drill that you posted of your daughter? It's high quality video, you can pause it and plainly see that she's rolling over the ball and the 3rd, 4th and pinky fingers are applying the spin, vs having the ball 'roll down' the fingers and come off the tips.

Sorry to interject into your discussion, the 'drill' posted helps as a 'feel'. Not a 'real'. If you think that the 'rollover' actually has those fingers touching the ball last, i would ask that you show the video of a full speed pitch doing this. These truths that i found in this site many years ago helped me and my DD sift thru the comments to find what was really going on. Just like the screwball that doesn't 'screw' and the riseball that doesn't 'rise', the rollover drop really doesn't 'roll over'.

 

[sluggers]

@Hillhouse... We seem to be in violent agreement that you've come up with a great way to teach the drop. We've argued about the other stuff before...we can resume the arguments over a cold beer. (I've had both my vaccine shots.)

@fanboi22 makes a good point...the terminology that is used in softball was developed a long time ago. It doesn't make a lot of sense when you start looking at slow motion videos.

 

[sluggers]

Then what is the purpose of the drill that you posted of your daughter? It's high quality video, you can pause it and plainly see that she's rolling over the ball and the 3rd, 4th and pinky fingers are applying the spin, vs having the ball 'roll down' the fingers and come off the tips.

The OP asked for help as to timing. The drill is to work on timing. To get a real good drop, the timing is critical. If the IR is late, the ball is a high fastball, which soon becomes a high fly ball over the CF's head.

The drill is not for perfecting the release phase of the pitch.

 

[ArmWhip]

Just to be clear I don't teach a rollover drop, I don't think you can get enough drop spin. I teach a rollover curve, which is a common pitch. In fact I don't teach a drop at all other than to get 12-6 spin. Whenever I ask a pitcher to focus on getting extra spin it seems to backfire. I would be interested in what Bill says about teaching the drop in terms of getting extra spin and whether your daughters release is the same as his.

 

[Gags]

Thanks ArmWhip - I was interested in hearing Bill's instruction on that as well - what's he doing to improve the sharpness of the break? Is there a conscious attempt to pull the fingers up the back of the ball, or try to get more "snap" from the fingers?

If they only realized that that little drop break they had could and should be increased. And that can happen naturally without a change in mechanics or adding unnecessary movements.

Bill - If a player already gets 12-6 spin, is the increase in spin rate achieved by a quicker or tighter rotation (IR) of the forearm to get to palm-forward / release? I'm not sure what else would be considered natural, that wouldn't change the mechanics.

 

[Hillhouse]

Thanks ArmWhip - I was interested in hearing Bill's instruction on that as well - what's he doing to improve the sharpness of the break? Is there a conscious attempt to pull the fingers up the back of the ball, or try to get more "snap" from the fingers?

Bill - If a player already gets 12-6 spin, is the increase in spin rate achieved by a quicker or tighter rotation (IR) of the forearm to get to palm-forward / release? I'm not sure what else would be considered natural, that wouldn't change the mechanics.

For me personally, and for the kids I teach, I promote them to snap or whip their elbow more. The more they whip the elbow, the more the wrist and fingers will follow in sequence. So the harder you whip the elbow, the more speed/spin you will create on the pitch (any pitch, not just the drop).

2 things we can never get enough of from students: Elbow whip and push from the rubber.