Need some help

[fanboi22]

@fanboi22, No, the hand doesn't roll over the front side of the ball when pitching "for real". My DD describes the release as screwing the ball into the ground.

The animation might help. The large gear is the hand, and the small gear is the ball. In an IR release, the hand is rotating counter-clockwise (for a rightie), imparting down spin on the ball.

So, the key to throwing a drop ball with a sharp break is to increase the IR rotational speed of the hand/forearm/arm. The result of quicker IR is the characteristic "hand down" follow, as opposed to the "magician" follow through.

The usual spin of a fastball is around 15RPS. It is possible for a pitcher to get up to 28RPS (or more).

Thank you for the clarification. I totally agree.

 

[Hillhouse]

@fanboi22, No, the hand doesn't roll over the front side of the ball when pitching "for real". My DD describes the release as screwing the ball into the ground.

The animation might help. The large gear is the hand, and the small gear is the ball. In an IR release, the hand is rotating counter-clockwise (for a rightie), imparting down spin on the ball.

So, the key to throwing a drop ball with a sharp break is to increase the IR rotational speed of the hand/forearm/arm. The result of quicker IR is the characteristic "hand down" follow, as opposed to the "magician" follow through.

The usual spin of a fastball is around 15RPS. It is possible for a pitcher to get up to 28RPS (or more).

Ray, a while ago you posted a video of your DD throwing her dropball. I seem to remember saying back then that she was actually peeling it, and the whole "turn over thing" happened well after the ball was released. I guess I don't understand why you'd continue to advocate for this turn over drop when that's not what your daughter did. You said she had a very very good dropball, and I believe you. But that turn over motion had nothing to do with it, it was all about her having straight spin and a good release point. If my memory is correct, these 2 things are what made her drop effective. Forgive me if I've asked this in the past, what was her dropball velocity compared to other pitches? Was her drop a few MPH slower?

 

[Rosey]

If you are trying to throw a turn over do you grip it on the 2 seam or 4 seam to create 4 seam rotation? After you answer that when she throws it right which way does the ball actually spin seam orientation wise. Meaning does it spin 6-12 with a 2 seam orientation or 4 seam orientation. An iphone 6s or higher on slow motion will tell you as well.

I think the words peel and turn over are just cues. The ball comes out of the hand the same way. Once you understand that, and how to read the spin, you know what you're doing wrong/right.

 

[Hillhouse]

I've said it a number of times, one more won't hurt: the hardest thing about the drop is the simplicity of it. There are all these people that over complicate the drop by having these unnecessary and complex motions when throwing a "peel" drop, and so much of it simply doesn't make sense. Not only are people being told to yank up and back when throwing a peel, almost as if starting a lawnmower but, this also requires a stoppage of the arm's whipping motion. If you think about it, to do what these people teach on throwing a drop, the arm has to completely stop at the release in order to do this lawnmower yank up and back. How does that fall in line with the "IR" that everyone always discusses?

99% of people will say that their DD's "fastball" sometimes has a drop action to it. Yet, few realize that their "fastball" is actually a poorly thrown drop. The only difference between the ones that drop and the ones that don't is the release point out of the hand. The later the release, the flatter the pitch. It really is that simple. Turning your "fastball" into your drop is as simple as teaching the release to be at or before the back leg. That's it. Don't stop your hand, don't cut the follow through short, don't pull up and back like a lawnmower, just get all 4 seams spinning forward and focus on the release point. There's no need to shorten the stride either. The bottom line is there is nothing mechanical that needs to change to make a ball have excellent dropping action to it.

 

[HunterMO]

I've said it a number of times, one more won't hurt: the hardest thing about the drop is the simplicity of it. There are all these people that over complicate the drop by having these unnecessary and complex motions when throwing a "peel" drop, and so much of it simply doesn't make sense. Not only are people being told to yank up and back when throwing a peel, almost as if starting a lawnmower but, this also requires a stoppage of the arm's whipping motion. If you think about it, to do what these people teach on throwing a drop, the arm has to completely stop at the release in order to do this lawnmower yank up and back. How does that fall in line with the "IR" that everyone always discusses?

99% of people will say that their DD's "fastball" sometimes has a drop action to it. Yet, few realize that their "fastball" is actually a poorly thrown drop. The only difference between the ones that drop and the ones that don't is the release point out of the hand. The later the release, the flatter the pitch. It really is that simple. Turning your "fastball" into your drop is as simple as teaching the release to be at or before the back leg. That's it. Don't stop your hand, don't cut the follow through short, don't pull up and back like a lawnmower, just get all 4 seams spinning forward and focus on the release point. There's no need to shorten the stride either. The bottom line is there is nothing mechanical that needs to change to make a ball have excellent dropping action to it.

I'm going to piggy back this simply from personal experience working with DD and learning it myself. I'm a HUGE proponent of keeping this pitch simple. There is zero reason it can't be thrown in the same manner as a "fastball" IF all other mechanics are correct. I make that statement because that has been DD's biggest issue with the pitch. Her ER to IR hasn't been correct and she fights ball orientation at release. Also keeps her arm really stiff. We've been working that the past few months and it's been so much better. Now we are adding consistency of the release to keep the ball path flatter.

I wish I could remember what game I was watching yesterday, but a pitcher threw a drop ball for a strike out. It looked 100% like a fastball until moved right at the end and wasn't. Nothing in the mechanics to say it wasn't coming in hot and straight. It didn't hit the dirt or plate. Moved maybe 4-5" (guessing). The batter was already in motion for the fastball and had no chance to adjust. Resulted in a swing and miss.

I'm stealing from Mr. Hillhouse, but if you're going to throw a fastball....why not throw one that moves. Ala....a drop ball.

 

[sluggers]

Bill, I respect you as a teacher. You are great at teaching, and, as I've said before, I wish my DD could have gone to you as a PC. This discussion is about "what is really going on".

I guess I don't understand why you'd continue to advocate for this turn over drop when that's not what your daughter did. You said she had a very very good dropball, and I believe you. But that turn over motion had nothing to do with it,

Honestly, I wish you would read what I wrote. It would save everyone a lot of time.

1) The terms "peel" and "turnover" are wrong. These were terms created back in the 1940s. Neither describe the motion of the hand.
2) IR refers to "internal *ROTATION*"....the hand is rotating from palm up at 9 to palm facing the catcher at 6 to palm down at 3.
3) In IR, the 12-6 down spin on the ball is created by the rotation of the hand.
4) How does IR create down spin? The hand and the ball are like 90 degree gears--the same thing that is every automobile.
5) If you increase the speed of the IR, you increase the speed of rotation of the hand, which increases the speed of rotation of the ball.
6) If the speed of rotation of the ball increases, the flight path of the ball changes.
7) The problem with increasing the speed of rotation is that it makes timing the release more difficult.

 

[sluggers]

. Turning your "fastball" into your drop is as simple as teaching the release to be at or before the back leg. That's it.

That doesn't make any sense.

In order for a dropball to drop more than the fastball, the ball has to have more spin. That is physics. You can see this at any ping pong or tennis match....every HS tennis player knows that the more top spin s/he puts on a tennis ball, the more the ball dives.

Some softball pitchers have dramatically more spin on the drop ball than the fastball. My DD was getting 28RPS on her drop versus 14RPS on her fastball.

Releasing the ball earlier just makes it a high fastball. If a pitcher has a good riseball, a high fastball with tight 12-6 spin would be effective. But, that doesn't make it a drop ball.

The whole "4 seam will make the ball move more" in the context of Magnus force pitches is a myth.

As an FYI, my DD threw neither a "4 seam" nor "2 seam" drop. Her grip put her middle finger on a seam, which increased the force she could apply on the ball.

 

[HunterMO]

DD’s PC always calls it “fire the fingers” and/or “push the fingers down” to help create more rotation at release.

 

[HunterMO]

That doesn't make any sense.

In order for a dropball to drop more than the fastball, the ball has to have more spin. That is physics. You can see this at any ping pong or tennis match....every HS tennis player knows that the more top spin s/he puts on a tennis ball, the more the ball dives.

Some softball pitchers have dramatically more spin on the drop ball than the fastball. My DD was getting 28RPS on her drop versus 14RPS on her fastball.

Releasing the ball earlier just makes it a high fastball. If a pitcher has a good riseball, a high fastball with tight 12-6 spin would be effective. But, that doesn't make it a drop ball.

The whole "4 seam will make the ball move more" in the context of Magnus force pitches is a myth.

As an FYI, my DD threw neither a "4 seam" nor "2 seam" drop. Her grip put her middle finger on a seam, which increased the force she could apply on the ball.

I think the assumption is being made that the fastball and drop ball orientation at release are the same. The earlier release keeps the ball down on a more flat path allowing the forward rotation (aided by firing off the fingers and in a 12/5 or 11/6 spin) to get the ball to move. Any upward path of the ball will work against the severity of the drop.

At least that’s how I’ve understood it.

 

[ArmWhip]

If a pitcher's fastball is half bullet spin then changing the axis to be perpendicular to the ball flight will add more 'drop'.

I have never had much luck trying to get a pitcher with natural 12-6 spin to put more rpm's on the ball.

Sluggers, didn't you post video of your daughters release? I seem to remember thinking it was unique, in between a peel and a rollover.