Just for fun 2: Another odd obstruction

[Eric F]

In both scenarios I believe R3 made it safely back to 3B (otherwise these are easy calls)

I saw that R3 was tagged, but it wasn’t clear whether she was on the base. If both are on 3B...R2 is out, and R3 is safe at 3B.

 

[The Man In Blue]

Clarification: R3 was not tagged heading to home. The tag occurred on both runners (R3, then R2) while both were on third base.

Giving Comp and MTR a chance to get in ...

I did forget: USA Softball rules in this case, though we can discuss other alphabets once I reveal what we did ... and whether we were potentially right/wrong.

 

[ArmWhip]

Reading these two obstruction scenarios has made me look closer at the wording of the rule. It doesn't say that a runner cannot be called out once she is obstructed. It says she should be awarded a base that she would have reached if not obstructed.

In the first scenario, if the obstruction is minor as MIB stated and it did not keep the runner from reaching a base then when she is tagged out she should be out. The runner is only awarded a base that she would have reached if she had not been obstructed. Being obstructed does not grant immunity from being put out. This is something I had never considered.

 

[testandor]

As regards the second scenario, I know I could never award R2 3B which would force R3 to be safe at home. Think about this for a minute. Such a call would award R3 home when it was clear that she knew she wouldn't be safe had she continued to try to score, all because an obstructed runner (R2) who not only WOULD have made it to third had there been no obstruction, but who CHOSE NOT TO continue to 3B.

I can't quote you a rule right now, but there's something definitely wrong when you award both runners the next base, when both clearly chose NOT to attempt to reach the next base.

 

[testandor]

Reading these two obstruction scenarios... It doesn't say that a runner cannot be called out once she is obstructed.

Being obstructed does not grant immunity from being put out.

Actually, it does say she can't be tagged out "between the two bases where the obstruction occurred", which is the case in both scenarios.

 

[MTR]

Here is another odd obstruction play from a championship game a few years ago:

Runners on second (R2) and third (R3). Passed ball/wild pitch and both runners break for the next base. R2 is obstructed by the shortstop, but reaches third base.

R3 was about 15 feet from home plate and decided she wouldn’t beat the catcher’s throw to the piTotcher, so she turns tail and returns back to third base also.

Defense throws the ball down to third and tags R3 and then R2.

What do you have?

To start, it would have been R1 & R2

IMO, the problem with the trail runner reaching 3B is that the runner never had the right to that base and cannot be considered "safe" and remains in jeopardy until the preceding runner (in this case) scores or is put out.

 

[ArmWhip]

Actually, it does say she can't be tagged out "between the two bases where the obstruction occurred", which is the case in both scenarios.

I finally found my ASA rule book and it does say that a runner cannot be called out between the bases where the obstruction occurred so I guess she does get immunity.

 

[The Man In Blue]

To start, it would have been R1 & R2

Depends on who is writing the book.

To me, R1 should be the first runner on base. R2 should be the next runner (or a blue and white astro-mech droid), etc.

I’ve gotten used to the NFHS way which lines the number up with the base. Don’t like it, but it stuck.

 

[The Man In Blue]

So ... I made the initial call “Out” on R2, followed immediately by “Time! I had obstruction on the shortstop!” Before placing the runners though, I got with my partner to sort it out. We went with the obstruction preventing R2 from being called out, but R3 being the legally entitled baserunner at 3rd base. We set the runners on 2nd and 3rd, right back where we started.

Now here is some interesting reading ...

In USA Softball, the trail runner is not necessarily the one who is out if two runners are occupying the same base. “The runner who first legally occupied the base is entitled to that base, unless forced to advance.” 8.3.E(1)

So when does a legal occupation occur (without starting a world war)? 8.3.B gives us that answer: “When a runner or batter runner acquires the right to a base by touching it before being put out, the runner or batter runner is entitled to hold that base until legally touching the next base or is forced to vacate it for a trailing runner.”

Since we didn’t have a force and R3 had not touched home plate, R3 still held legal rights to the base.

 

[kingsoda]

Agreed - if forced to vacate for a trailing runner it would be the lead runner, not the trailing runner, who should be called out. But practically speaking, I don't think you would often see that above low-level youth - the defensive team would typically (by then) have forced out the lead runner at the plate (or the next base).