Is there proof that closing hips before release can cause shoulder pain.

[splinterpicker]

Pitching style is an individual thing to me. My dd has been pitching closed style for 9 yrs now with out any problems. She does it to put herself in a defensive positon to face 300 dollar bats. Most pitchers I have seen that stay open sometimes leave themselves unprotected, because they could not defend themselves sideways. Maybe when I see someone throw overhanded 60 mph overhanded and stay open.
That will be the time to consider a change. All I know is I have not seen a infielder field sideways nor throw without closing their hip. I do not know every ones back ground, but I do know that I am not qualified to say which style is right or wrong. Just letting people know what works for my dd.

 

[shockcoach]

I have this injury. I am an example. Don't do it. I don't care what studies say.

Anecdotal.

I'll go with Dr. Werner. Her accolades are many in the field of kinesiology & biomechanics and she has been studying all pitchers, both baseball and windmillers, for 25 years. Her studies are also published and peer reviewed.

 

[lhowser]

Here is what I have noticed and what anyone can feel by slowly moving through the pitching motion:

1) hardly opening the hips puts tremendous stress on the shoulder complex during the arm circle (Not Good)

2) opening the hips to a full 90 degrees eliminates a good stretch across the torso and usually causes the pitch to be powered primarily by the shoulder and arm. Not the best and pretty stressful. Lots of people that do this also crow hop.(Not Good)

3) having the hips not quite open all of the way and having the shoulders open all the way seems to create less stress and maximum velocity. The hips slightly lead triggering a release sequence (just like hitting or throwing overhand) but NOT slamming closed. The hips close to various degrees (Good)

thoughts?

 

[PA SB Dad]

When I hear "closed style", I think of the finish as bent elbow or "hello elbow". When I hear "open style", I think IR or relaxed finish. This is sort of the very blunt way my mind works, and I am sure I am completely inaccurate, but these are the images that come to mind.

Perhaps we are all not being clear on what the arm does as it comes past the hip as opposed to how the arm finishes? In my mind, all power/strength finishes of the upper arm finish across the body - batting, hockey slap shot, football throw, baseball pitch, etc. I don't know why the windmill motion would be any different. However, that is not the same as what the hips are doing as the arm circle passes them. Closing the hips after the arm has gone past the hips does not seem so much of an issue to me. However, finishing the arm circle on the same side of the body, as in "hello elbow", seems to be more likely to cause injury, as you are finishing with your arm out front, rather than across, your body. Does this make sense?

 

[starsnuffer]

The pitcher needs to be taught that the movement of their hips is the left (stride) hip moving slightly upward and the right (drag) hip moving downward. Think of it like a girl putting their hand on their right hip and cocking the left outwards in a "sassy" kind of pose. This happens at the peak of the stride or "leap" and allows the rear leg to collapse and drag through will enabling the stride leg to be strong and plant for the pitch. Since most of us can only tell our hips to do one thing at a time, focusing on this "cocking" motion instead of "rotating", "twisting", or "pulling" the hips through then you avoid the slamming or closing without ever having to teach what "not" to do.

IMHO, you cannot effectively teach what someone "can't" or "shouldn't" do as well as you can teach what they should be doing at a given time.

It's easy for us, as critics, to point out flaws and what someone isn't doing, but the point isn't for us to criticize it's to teach, so we need to figure out exactly what needs to be happening and taught in place of all those flaws.

-W

 

[lhowser]

The hips do not lead it at all.

Based on these pitcher sequences this may be correct.

The pitchers are open more than it might appear. The angle if you look at the pitching rubber is deceptive.

 

[actionpnh]

The girl that this thread was originally about is a door slammer. Near foot plant she is somewhat over 45 degrees closed. And as she plants that back hip begins to crank towards the target and leads the way. Her drag foot marking is almost a 90 degree angle. She literally finishes with her right hip ahead of her left. She no doubt gets most of her speed from the rotational forces developed from her agressive hip turn. I learned today that she can throw just as fast from a half stride with her throwing arm starting parallel to the ground as her full pitch. Throughout this thread I think I found the answer I was looking for. If in the event the hips lead the way to far and to fast this puts excessive stress and strain on the arm and shoulder joint. Now convincing her bucket dad to let me make some changes to her delivery. The season is starting, any suggestions to get this process moving quickly in the right direction. I just hope we can do something that will help her this year.

 

[lhowser]

by the way the hips may slightly lead for a bit if you observe this video of a fine pitcher.

any suggestions to get this process moving quickly in the right direction. I just hope we can do something that will help her this year.

Absolutely...Show video and ask - "do you see it?...do you believe it?...then you need to try to do it."



I do believe FFS's videos may be more helpful but mine are much cooler.

 

[actionpnh]

i know that FFS is a master at video but this one is pretty darn cool and quite fitting as well. I notice that yes she may get the rear hip turning a shade ahead of shoulders and hand but it appears to me that just before release the hand passes and the hips pretty much stop coming forward. Thats what I need to show daddy. thx again

 

[Ken Krause]

Then why don't pitchers slam the door anymore? Also, if you look all studies from 25 years ago, we now know many are wrong. It does depend on the prevailing attitudes, actions and notions of a society. If you have a small sample group (yes), or the questions are not phrased correctly or not considered from the proper perspective you get skewed results. If the peers are not knowledgeable about softball they can't question study design or results.

With your logic of anecdotal evidence and only a few occurrences, then let's not have the FDA, automobile or consumer groups creating recalls, etc. Let's not have the players wear fielding masks. Those facial injury reports are 'anecdotal' and not officially studied, too. The masks have not even been studied or tested. (note: heavy sarcasm.)

The issues with closing the hips are widely reported by pitchers. I wish we had group clout to do a new study.

I agree with Screwball on this one. A study performed in 1996 is 16 years old. I would love to see the same study repeated today to see if there are differences in how pitchers throw today.

Keep in mind that the study done then was on how pitchers threw then. Its purpose was to find the optimal results based on what was occurring at the time, not necessarily what the objective best way to pitch IS. The study was performed back when the prevailing opinion was to slam the door closed. I remember because that's about the time my oldest daughter started pitching and that's what she was being taught, and that's what every book and video I could find taught.

I would love to see Dr. Warner perform the same study and see if she comes to the same conclusion. Also to see any statement from her that based on her knowledge of biomechanics, a particular way of pitching is the safest way to produce maximum results.

In my personal experience, pitchers who slam the door closed have shoulder pain when they pitch. Sometimes when I watch new students to see what they do I will ask the door closers if the back of their shoulder hurts when they pitch. Most will say yes. The ones who say no don't throw that hard.