In love with the Strikeout Pitcher

[riseball]

A pitcher with a high K/(BB+HBP) ratio isn't giving up a lot of 'free passes' (i.e., BB+HBP) relative to the strikeouts they collect.

A pitcher with a low K/(BB+HBP) ratio is giving away a lot of 'free passes' relative to the strikeouts they collect. Their strikeouts are considered 'expensive'.

That is incorrect as there is no true measure of expense as you have no idea what happens after the free pass. Coupled with something showing runs scored on free passes would make it meaningful. However, on its own it is more trivia rather than useful information. Like [MENTION=7378]cuzmail[/MENTION] stated it lacks any context to tell the whole story. When evaluating performance you cannot draw a conclusion based on minimal information.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

That is incorrect as there is no true measure of expense as you have no idea what happens after the free pass. Coupled with something showing runs scored on free passes would make it meaningful. However, on its own it is more trivia rather than useful information. Like [MENTION=7378]cuzmail[/MENTION] stated it lacks any context to tell the whole story. When evaluating performance you cannot draw a conclusion based on minimal information.

Not incorrect.

A pitcher with a large number of strikeouts, but having even more walks is hurting their team more than helping their team. Their strikeouts are expensive in that they give up more than one freebee base for every strikeout they collect.

Never said the K/(BB+HBP) was the whole story. Said it was a metric ... and it is ... and a decent metric combined with a few other metrics.

 

[cuzmail]

A pitcher with a high K/(BB+HBP) ratio isn't giving up a lot of 'free passes' (i.e., BB+HBP) relative to the strikeouts they collect.

A pitcher with a low K/(BB+HBP) ratio is giving away a lot of 'free passes' relative to the strikeouts they collect. Their strikeouts are considered 'expensive'.

OK, let me try this again. I understand the ratio and what is considered good versus bad.

I'll try showing my point in a scenario:
Tight 7 inning pitcher's duel game.
Pitcher strikes out 12
Walks two, hits one, and gives us a base hit during one bad inning
Team loses 1-0

Your metric will show a K/BB ratio of 4/1 which is very good considering your previous explanations. BUT the timing was everything.

 

[Perfect Circle]

OK, let me try this again. I understand the ratio and what is considered good versus bad.

I'll try showing my point in a scenario:
Tight 7 inning pitcher's duel game.
Pitcher strikes out 12
Walks two, hits one, and gives us a base hit during one bad inning
Team loses 1-0

Your metric will show a K/BB ratio of 4/1 which is very good considering your previous explanations. BUT the timing was everything.

Sounds like a couple Post Season NCAA games...Spinners won the WCWS this Year

 

[canyonjoe]

OK, let me try this again. I understand the ratio and what is considered good versus bad.

I'll try showing my point in a scenario:
Tight 7 inning pitcher's duel game.
Pitcher strikes out 12
Walks two, hits one, and gives us a base hit during one bad inning
Team loses 1-0

Your metric will show a K/BB ratio of 4/1 which is very good considering your previous explanations. BUT the timing was everything.

You can't take a stat and apply it to 1 game and say it's not a valid measure.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

OK, let me try this again. I understand the ratio and what is considered good versus bad.

I'll try showing my point in a scenario:
Tight 7 inning pitcher's duel game.
Pitcher strikes out 12
Walks two, hits one, and gives us a base hit during one bad inning
Team loses 1-0

Your metric will show a K/BB ratio of 4/1 which is very good considering your previous explanations. BUT the timing was everything.

Truth be told, it is difficult to win when you don't score .

When you need a strikeout, who is more apt to deliver .... the pitcher with a high K/(BB+HBP) ratio, or a pitcher with a low K/(BB+HBP) ratio?

This thread was about the love of high strikeout pitchers. Title of the thread = "In love with the Strikeout Pitcher".

My point is that some pitchers with a lot of strikeouts have expensive strikeouts ... i.e., they put on too many freebee baserunners relative to their strikeouts. These pitchers have low K/(BB+HBP) ratios. They may collect a lot of strikeouts, but they generally are not highly sought out ... relative to pitchers with a high K/(BB+HBP) ratio. Pitchers with a high K/(BB+HBP) ratio are generally favored ..... and in my experience tend to be heavily sought after.

 

[Cobb_of_Fury]

OK, let me try this again. I understand the ratio and what is considered good versus bad.

I'll try showing my point in a scenario:
Tight 7 inning pitcher's duel game.
Pitcher strikes out 12
Walks two, hits one, and gives us a base hit during one bad inning
Team loses 1-0

Your metric will show a K/BB ratio of 4/1 which is very good considering your previous explanations. BUT the timing was everything.

I don't know that there is a metric that measures what you are looking for - We could invent one KiKS (Strike outs In Key Situations) you can measure any stat you want. That's what sabrmetrics is.

General stats are to be taken as an aggregate. If one player has a WHip of 1.00 and it's almost always a lead off walk and another player has a WHip of 1.00 but hers is almost always a two out single, who has the better stat?
I prefer a two out single every time to a lead off walk but the stat doesn't tell us that.

 

[schwabach]

The stats are still a useful guideline if you are looking at a sheaf of pitcher resumes. I have noticed that when my daughter has hit good numbers using these stats, we have usually won or, if we have not, it was because we couldn't score against the other team or committed a string of errors.

 

[Sparky Guy]

OK, let me try this again. I understand the ratio and what is considered good versus bad.

I'll try showing my point in a scenario:
Tight 7 inning pitcher's duel game.
Pitcher strikes out 12
Walks two, hits one, and gives us a base hit during one bad inning
Team loses 1-0

Your metric will show a K/BB ratio of 4/1 which is very good considering your previous explanations. BUT the timing was everything.

The metric is more of a season overall type of measurement. What is the pitcher doing against good and bad teams combined over time.

My DD pitched a game in college with 17 K's, 0 BB/HBP, 0 errors and only gave up two hits. One was a seeing-eye single and the other a dinger. She lost 1-0. The other pitcher gave up several BB's and hits, but her team could not push even one run across the plate. Her number for that game was phenomenal. In reality it was closer to 7-8 for the season.

As with most stats they are a measure over time. It takes out the high's and low's of a season.

 

[WARRIORMIKE]

Ok after watching my dd pitch to the team last night, I just want my dd to throw a bloody strike. UGGH the struggles.