redhotcoach
Out on good behavior
- May 8, 2009
- 4,698
- 38
Opp, he did figure out how to get it.
How the elbows work
- Thread starter FiveFrameSwing
- Start date
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Opp, he did figure out how to get it.
You said something about a "fusion process" in a post I didn't get to respond to. Can you elaborate on it?
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Pstein ... you basically restrict ER in the slotting process. HI has that correct. It isn't so much that one pre-sets a connection orientation, but that one dynamically fuses/freezes/connects. If you listen closely to your body, you may even feel that you are resisting the slotting process. Just as Yeager commented that he rotates faster by resisting rotation, one slots more efficiently by resisting slotting.
- Jun 3, 2010
- 171
- 0
Argueing with FFS on the internet is like running a race in the special olympics.
Now before your retort FFS, you are a very smart person when it comes to hitting and swing mechanics. But it would be nice for a change if you did not try to belittle any person on this site that does not go by the FFS rules of swing mechanics. And also, please use common man English when you post, if we took all of these big words with us to the cage, our DD's would need a Stealth, Thesaurus and a Websters dictionary.
Instead of trying to sound smart by using the term Equidistant, just say " the elbows are the same distance apart".
And one more thing, please from now on only post video of students that you work with on a first hand basis. I would run the risk of being perma-baned, if you could supply us with just one clip of you actually helping some kid.
Now before your retort FFS, you are a very smart person when it comes to hitting and swing mechanics. But it would be nice for a change if you did not try to belittle any person on this site that does not go by the FFS rules of swing mechanics. And also, please use common man English when you post, if we took all of these big words with us to the cage, our DD's would need a Stealth, Thesaurus and a Websters dictionary.
Instead of trying to sound smart by using the term Equidistant, just say " the elbows are the same distance apart".
And one more thing, please from now on only post video of students that you work with on a first hand basis. I would run the risk of being perma-baned, if you could supply us with just one clip of you actually helping some kid.
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Here is another video of Dr. Yeager describing the back arm action.
You don't need to listen to all ten minutes. Here are some quotes from the first three minutes of the video:
"In phase two the long bone of the upper arm is turning in the opposite direction it turned in phase one.
To turn the elbow up it was turning in, or internal rotation. Now to turn the elbow to the ball it turns in the opposite direction, it's turning outward actually; external rotation."
"The back elbow will begin to turn up as the back elbow is loaded. It will continue to load up as the back
leg presses laterally to the front side. Just before the front heel drops the long bone in the upper arm
will reverse it's direction and start to externally rotate and the elbow will begin to slot."
IMO Dr. Yeager has the back arm action exactly right. I don't have time tonight, but tomorrow if I get time I will add some comments on the front arm. In order to truly understand how the back arm works, it helps to understand what the front arm does when the back elbow slots.
Also note in the video how Dr. Yeager points out how the hands stay in place as the back elbow lowers and externally rotates. It's a combination movement. Also note how often he uses variations of the word "turn" when referring to the back arm action. Anytime he mentions the word "turn", he is talking about internal or external rotation.
You don't need to listen to all ten minutes. Here are some quotes from the first three minutes of the video:
"In phase two the long bone of the upper arm is turning in the opposite direction it turned in phase one.
To turn the elbow up it was turning in, or internal rotation. Now to turn the elbow to the ball it turns in the opposite direction, it's turning outward actually; external rotation."
"The back elbow will begin to turn up as the back elbow is loaded. It will continue to load up as the back
leg presses laterally to the front side. Just before the front heel drops the long bone in the upper arm
will reverse it's direction and start to externally rotate and the elbow will begin to slot."
IMO Dr. Yeager has the back arm action exactly right. I don't have time tonight, but tomorrow if I get time I will add some comments on the front arm. In order to truly understand how the back arm works, it helps to understand what the front arm does when the back elbow slots.
Also note in the video how Dr. Yeager points out how the hands stay in place as the back elbow lowers and externally rotates. It's a combination movement. Also note how often he uses variations of the word "turn" when referring to the back arm action. Anytime he mentions the word "turn", he is talking about internal or external rotation.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Wellphyt ... the key part to what you wrote is "begin to slot". That's it ... ER is completely done with after the very beginning of the slotting process.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Hoover … I don’t have an infinite amount of time to spend on message boards. I will continue to use the words that come easiest to me when attempting to make quick posts. I also won’t be posting examples of my students … but I will attempt to generate GIFs to help describe the areas of the swing being discussed or the actions that I’m attempting to describe. I do expect people to seek verification ... both via the Hanson Principle and by physically swinging a bat. After a while you get a general flavor of certain posters ... if their posts aren't to your liking, then you have a choice to pass over them.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Wellphyt … think back to the earlier PCR days. Remember how SE created an early ‘connection’ prior to the slotting process. Why do you think he was doing that? He was doing that to prevent ER during the slotting process. Why was he doing that? He was doing that to prevent what he considered ‘bat drag’ … and the definition he was using for ‘bat drag’ at the time was having the elbow lead the hands at the RVP-Connection-Point position. By restricting ER he restricted the observation of what he was calling ‘bat drag’. It was a bandaide type solution ... but it was none-the-less an understanding of preventing ER.
I watched Yeager's videos posted here several times now...it still seems to me that there's a significant difference in how the elbow gets slotted when you focus on the upper arm as he clearly and explicitly does (see bold text above and also watch shorter two-minute video earlier in this thread) versus focusing on the hands and letting THEIR actions slot the elbow.
FFS often speaks of the idea of "placing a feel sensor."
When I throw, I don't focus on my hands (or the ball in my hand). My feel sensor goes in my shoulder/upper arm in terms of dictating how/when the elbow rises then slots.
When I hit, conversely, I really like to feel my hands (and the weight of the barrel in my hands). I like the feel of them working up and back (knob to the catcher) and I like to feel of them subsequently turning the barrel with my hands...that's my "feel sensor" for launching the barrel. That hand-centric move, to me, also involves supination as I understand it. In the process, my elbow slots.
As I follow this, it seems Yeager, as cited by Wellphyt, doesn't view the elbows and hands working in this way. Other frequent posters here, like JBooth, also don't seem to view barrel launch in that way either, as I've come to try to understand their points of view. That's fine, of course. I hope it's fine too to try to understand both their's and opposing views.
I don't have a horse in this game at all -- but *turning the barrel* has been a very valuable thing for me to try to understand. It is important in combating bat drag, which so many of us in fastpitch wrestle with.
If you combine the turn the barrel idea with the hands to the ball/barrel to the ball video Tewks posted at one point and that has been referenced many times here (he demonstrated how the swing is "over" very early...you just turn the barrel while keeping the hands at the shoulder and rotate and tilt, and voila, the barrel-delivery part of the swing is done, he'd say), you get an approach to delivering the barrel that is much different and earlier/deeper than one often sees.
I've found those concepts, coupled with the related concept of "throwing the barrel" and the practice of actually throwing bats, to be very valuable in working with hitters on the 14U, now 16U, team I coach.
These aren't ideas I run into anywhere except in the discussions that cross this site and others. It's often messy but extremely valuable.
My two cents. Tks.
FFS often speaks of the idea of "placing a feel sensor."
When I throw, I don't focus on my hands (or the ball in my hand). My feel sensor goes in my shoulder/upper arm in terms of dictating how/when the elbow rises then slots.
When I hit, conversely, I really like to feel my hands (and the weight of the barrel in my hands). I like the feel of them working up and back (knob to the catcher) and I like to feel of them subsequently turning the barrel with my hands...that's my "feel sensor" for launching the barrel. That hand-centric move, to me, also involves supination as I understand it. In the process, my elbow slots.
As I follow this, it seems Yeager, as cited by Wellphyt, doesn't view the elbows and hands working in this way. Other frequent posters here, like JBooth, also don't seem to view barrel launch in that way either, as I've come to try to understand their points of view. That's fine, of course. I hope it's fine too to try to understand both their's and opposing views.
I don't have a horse in this game at all -- but *turning the barrel* has been a very valuable thing for me to try to understand. It is important in combating bat drag, which so many of us in fastpitch wrestle with.
If you combine the turn the barrel idea with the hands to the ball/barrel to the ball video Tewks posted at one point and that has been referenced many times here (he demonstrated how the swing is "over" very early...you just turn the barrel while keeping the hands at the shoulder and rotate and tilt, and voila, the barrel-delivery part of the swing is done, he'd say), you get an approach to delivering the barrel that is much different and earlier/deeper than one often sees.
I've found those concepts, coupled with the related concept of "throwing the barrel" and the practice of actually throwing bats, to be very valuable in working with hitters on the 14U, now 16U, team I coach.
These aren't ideas I run into anywhere except in the discussions that cross this site and others. It's often messy but extremely valuable.
My two cents. Tks.
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I disagree that Dr. Yeager is saying or implying that ER of the rear upper arm gets shut down as soon as it starts.
There is a definitive way to measure when ER ends. Does anyone know what it is?
There is a definitive way to measure when ER ends. Does anyone know what it is?
