Hitting Questions?

[skeptic]

Tom, what is interesting is to see what you have talked about for years, - that is, teaching overhand throwing and hitting together, due to the similarity in sequences and synching of movements - is exactly what Candrea/Slaught/Enquist are talking about. Geez, how did you know that, Tom? I mean, with no real students and all... (sorry for the smoke screen reference...hard to resist.)

He DIDN'T know it. Just gravy-trained.

The material in question - RVP - is now more than 4 years old. When it was published, Tom was a happy MODERATOR at a SETPRO hitting site. Other than the occasional buffoonery of "arm action is king," there were NO SUCH comments authored by Tom in that time period.

He absolutely did NOT start talking about this until after he saw the RVP material. Period, didn't happen.


Slapper23, it sounds as if you work with hitters, so I'm inclined to at least listen to what you have to say. If you have worked with college level hitters, I'd be even more willing.

Guerry does not work with any hitters of any age, which makes his opinions just that.


THAT is content.



As for Lotieff, I know him, and have competed against him. I've never personally had the specific discussion, but I've overheard him discussing a number of hitting influences. His answer to a question about Englishbey was something like "Steve has a lot of the answers, though not all of the answers." It was NOT a disparaging comment. I have also heard him say that NO ONE instructor has ALL of the answers. And I dont think he panders to his audience, I think that is what he believes, so I would urge you to stop putting words in his mouth. Sounds as if you know him, and maybe he says something different to you. Or maybe you just INFER he says something different to you.

 

[skeptic]

You are a killer B in terms of killing off some good discussions at hsbaseballweb with your biased moderating. You should consider giving that job up as should JAke at bbf. level of discussion has gone way down.

You've been banned from virtually every hitting site on the internet, and you're blaming MODERATORS? My God, are you for real?

Maybe you should be a softball dad. You know, the kind who thinks their daughter is the best player on the planet, if only the coaches would just see it.

Get a grip.

But anyway, this is way off point. What are the specifics you want addressed. The Nyman/Hardy stuff we have been over.

Indulge those of us who either don't think this happened or missed it.

You consistently quote a book authored by a golf guy. You state that he says that the 2-plane golf swing is most similar to the baseball swing. And yet the book - I haven't read it - APPARENTLY says that the ONE plane swing is most similar to baseball.

Either stop referencing the book, or change your conclusions. You CAN'T just misquote or mis-represent the author of a book. Do you REALLY expect that no one will challenge this stuff?

 

[tom.guerry]

skeptic-

you are late to the party and have no experience with what happened in the distant past. You are just being taken advantage of/used by hearsay.

My descriptions have been largely the same since WAY before any Slaught info was out.

here is an post when we were all good buddies before Nyman went crazy and Steve and the posse followed him to the dark side:

Questions for Tom Guerry

Lots of older ones on setpro and batspeed.

Scott may remember we actually were given the Candrea rightview stuff to look over before it was released. He also remembers I was very gracious about leaving Nyman because I disagreed with his move away from the pattern that resembles overhand throw (upper and lower body and synch programs) and his misinterpretation of torque in his own simulations.

This later problem turns out to be a wilful misrepresentation on Nyman's part to try to discredit Mankin (which is why I continue to criticise Nyman the pseudoscientist heavily, that and the fact that he is screwing up baseball swings for many still, including the Stocks), but now Nyman has revised his interpretation to include "early torque" as key to a quick swing and good release. He still doesn't have it early enough, the torque is needed to create torso loading, not just kick before the torso unloads. he still has scap action wrong which forces the non-MLB single plane "gate swing". Follow that and it;s death to the MLB/baseball. But it's better than a disconnected arm swing for fastpitch.

 

[tom.guerry]

skeptic said:

"And yet the book - I haven't read it - APPARENTLY says that the ONE plane swing is most similar to baseball."

Skeptic- try reading it and using your brain and trying it out before commenting.

you are being used.

 

[skeptic]

you are late to the party and have no experience with what happened in the distant past. You are just being taken advantage of/used by hearsay.

I don't know who is taking advantage of me. I have received no PMs or correspondance of any kind at this site or elsewhere. I have remained anonymous for reasons which would be obvious if you knew who I was.

That said, I do read a lot of the online web boards, and am familiar with most of the personalities.

Some have come closer to my own beliefs than you. Others have been significantly more persuasive than you.

Your unwillingness to work with a single student speaks volumes to me. There is no excuse for that. None. How hard would it be to work with ONE kid, just to demonstrate that you know what you are talking about? It completely invalidates your credibility with me. If others feel differently, more power to them. I can't get past it, because I can't understand it.

Scott may remember we actually were given the Candrea rightview stuff to look over before it was released. He also remembers I was very gracious about leaving Nyman because I disagreed with his move away from the pattern that resembles overhand throw (upper and lower body and synch programs) and his misinterpretation of torque in his own simulations.

I do know who Scott is, and in fact, whether or not HE knows it, have seen a number of his hitters while scouting Club ball. And they weren't too bad. In fact, a couple were very good.

It is interesting that 5+ years ago, based on the thread you linked, you and he were in apparent agreement. Who changed? You or him?

I have no idea of the circumstances of your dismissal from Setpro. Many have described it as less than amicable. Not true? Doesn't matter. Nyman is insane. It is what it is. But doesn't change the fact that you were once a moderator there, and now slam him every chance you get. Sounds like an agenda to me.

skeptic said:

"And yet the book - I haven't read it - APPARENTLY says that the ONE plane swing is most similar to baseball."

Skeptic- try reading it and using your brain and trying it out before commenting.

you are being used

I read the quote below. Is it reproduced inaccurately?

Look, the guy defines 1-plane and 2-plane differently than you, and differently than you'd like him to. Deal with it, quit quoting him and representing him as supporting your position. It's not honest, and makes you look ridiculous.

From The Plane Truth About Golf, by Jim Hardy:

"The actions of the arms in the one -plane downswing is very similar to that of a baseball swing .That is, at the top of the backswing, your left arm is across your chest with your right behind you, folded with the elbow pointing slightly behind you. Now if you look at the great power hitters in baseball. you'll see that from this position, they turn their shoulders and upper torso as hard and fast as they can toward the coming pitch.

"The torso is like an inner of centripetal force whose movement activates the bat, which receives the outer or centrifugal effect when this force and its effects are applied correctly, the bat comes thru with crashing speed to meet the ball.

"Its the same principle in the one plane golf swing. You don't throw your arms and club at the ball; rather they get thrown around by the turn of the shoulders and torso."

Look, I'm done carping at you. Not worth either of our time. But the bottom line is, until you actually work with a kid and teach him or her to hit, you are at BEST, a nice guy. Nothing wrong with that. But not a hitting coach.

 

[tom.guerry]

glad you are done.

let's move on.

Any content related questions ?

 

[Slapper23]

Skeptic,

As Tom points out, I think you are making assumptions without knowing the background info. Sounds like you coach college or travel, if so that is great. And what you say about Mike Lotief does not surprise me in the least. Mike would not make disparging remarks toward another coach. He's a great guy and a friend, and a hell of a coach.

But for a college coach, if that's what you are, it is disappointing to see your online personality expressed in the manner I have been reading.

Yes, I do coach players on the HS and travel levels. I'm still learning, but have been at this for a while. I've been down the Setpro/Nyman/Englishbey road and found it to not represent what I see happening in major league hitters. But that is me; if you like it, more power to you.

By the way, Tom is a nice guy, very helpful, and has helped a lot of people with hitting over the years. Like me, he sees the swing differently than the Setpro/Englishbey/PCR crowd.

Mike

 

[Hit Dr.24]

You guys are always dising each other,I would like to see video of each of you swinging and then see who might be on track!

 

[CoachB25]

You guys are always dising each other,I would like to see video of each of you swinging and then see who might be on track!

Major history here. Yet, some of us get along and rather well. It just depends upon who's pulling who's chain. What has been lost in all of this is that there really were questions asked throughout this thread that could have generated good discussion. Yet, one attacks another or one cites philosophy incorrectly and so it goes. That, I suppose will never change. Just too much animosity.

As per me swinging a bat, ugly sight now. Back in the day, perhaps it was different. I did get to swing it at the collegiate level although briefly. Swinging it isn't necessarily the key. Regardless of philosophy, what have any of these guys instilled in hitters that have enabled them to help their game? That's the real question in my mind. I sleep comfortably every night knowing that those that I work with come away with drills, knowledge, strategies,... that will enable them to improve. Again, I'll use the college educator example. I've sat through countless hours of theory. Theory without implementation is useless. Then, the next element in the effectiveness of anyone participating in this thread is whether they can develop a program that motivates players to come to them for instruction. If they coach HS ball, are they proven and do they improve their players? Well, you get the point.

Finally, per the "dissing" each other, I'd ask if it were reasonable to request that if one cite examples where the author of said idea is directly quoted that it be reasonable to assert that in fact those quotes by that person ARE exactly what they meant?

 

[tom.guerry]

hitdr -



For hitting and teaching and demo purposes, swings like enquist/candrea demo swings are fine. Epstein does same thing. Same slowspeed choreography works fine for overhand throw as well.

Or if you need a guinea pig to instruct, demo with another player



Do you find that limiting ?

where do you agree/disagree with the rightview approach ?