Hitting Questions?

[Slapper23]

I am calling you on that one. How in the world can your back scap stay pinched and still make a move to the ball? The very thing you make fun of (a one piece, spin swing) is exactly what would happen if your back scap stayed pinched.

You are way off the mark with those comments. In the PCR/Nyman/Englishbey swing, the back scap would unload/unpinch well before contact. Totally different arm action involved here, and the back scap remaining pinched is very much related to the role of the top hand/arm in the swing - which differs by 180 degrees from the PCR blueprint. Study clips of the top guys in ML and you will the arm action is as Tom describes. A revealing difference between lead arm vs. top hand emphasis.

Mike

 

[RayR]

You are way off the mark with those comments. In the PCR/Nyman/Englishbey swing, the back scap would unload/unpinch well before contact. Totally different arm action involved here, and the back scap remaining pinched is very much related to the role of the top hand/arm in the swing - which differs by 180 degrees from the PCR blueprint. Study clips of the top guys in ML and you will the arm action is as Tom describes. A revealing difference between lead arm vs. top hand emphasis.

Mike

You have me totally confused. If I load the rear scap (pinch) and try to swing while keeping it pinched how do you get the bat around? Rotating the torso?

Are you saying the scap will depress? I agree with that, but the scap will unpinch, meaning slide around the rib cage. When you say "stay pinched" it sounds like you are saying staying fixed.

 

[tom.guerry]

That's right MTS, back scap clamps down to connect and does not slide around rib cage until after contact.

Torso uncooiling (not shoulder/"scap" rotation, shoulders are "bypassed" as generators of rotation) is what drives the swing.

The scaps are used to assist in turning the bat between the hands early.

This creates resistance which keeps the hands back and controls stretch and fire of the torso while at the same time giving the bathead a running start (without any premature unhinging of lead wrist) so inertia does not force drag.

This is how you get "early" batspeed and match the plane to the pitch as Williams decribed, the unloading of a well coiled torso producing what he described as the power/push/axe swing/slight up swing with top hand wrist unbroken at contact.

WAYYYYYYYYYYY different from a PCR use scaps to turn arms and bat around body as body turns/swing like heck/five frame swing/etc.

Totally different feel and pattern as described by candrea and enquist for example. The MLB swing gets you prepared early/slowly when you swing like you throw.

Entirely unlike the turn like heck PCR swing.

Features of one pattern should usually not be mixed with the other.

 

[RayR]

The moment the rear elbow drops the rear scap is unloading. Like I said, the rear scap is depressing, it is not staying pinched in a fixed place.

The scap depressing is still a move around the rib cage. Muscles are acting upon the scapula and displacing it.

 

[Wellphyt]

I was about to call bs on Tom also...but before I did I thought I would check with my wife who is a physical therapist and knows all about muscles and how they work.

While in my batting stance I had her place her hand on my back scap and then tell me what the back scap was doing when I loaded and unloaded.

Here's what happened. As I loaded the back scap compressed. When I slotted my elbow the back scap continued to stay relatively compressed. It stayed relatively compressed all the way around to where contact would normally be.

I never would have believed it, had I not tried it. I thought for sure that the back scap would totally decompress when the back elbow was slotted. My wife estimates that my back scap remained about 70% compressed right up until contact.

 

[tom.guerry]

You can do it either way, BUT pattern will be different. Early batspeed and MLB are impossible if you swing the scap around the torso before contact.

In addition to taking hacks either way. I like to look at the gold literature and see where parallels are found.

The best thing rleated here is the "hitting" method/variant of Homer Kelley's The Golf Machine, see lynnblakegolf.com for best accessible info.

In the hitting variant of the golf swing, the body action is described as a "hand-controlled pivot". The back shoulder is loaded into the swing plane and hip turn turns the shoulder down the plane a little where it acts as a platform so when the back arm extends at the elbow you don't "run out of right arm". The shoulder is not unloaded until after contact/release.

This is one of several crucial mistakes Nyman makes in claiming that PCR de3scribes the MLB pattern. First he abandoned the upper/lower/synch motor program concept which works best for comparing swing to throw, then he got the scap action right in throwing, but wrong in swinging (including how shoulders tilt/bypass, not turn), he missed the importance of back arm action sequence in synching upper/lower body and with respect to arm extension/release, he encourages external rotation of the lead arm through contact to roll the lead wrist which is the chickenwinging flaw that forces premature disconnection and deceleration.

Otherwise, the general principles and approaches of the ebook are pretty reasonable and his throwing info is good.

 

[BoardMember]

I was about to call bs on Tom also...but before I did I thought I would check with my wife who is a physical therapist and knows all about muscles and how they work.

While in my batting stance I had her place her hand on my back scap and then tell me what the back scap was doing when I loaded and unloaded.

Here's what happened. As I loaded the back scap compressed. When I slotted my elbow the back scap continued to stay relatively compressed. It stayed relatively compressed all the way around to where contact would normally be.

I never would have believed it, had I not tried it. I thought for sure that the back scap would totally decompress when the back elbow was slotted. My wife estimates that my back scap remained about 70% compressed right up until contact.

I would be very careful what you read here Wellphyt. There is a bit of rhetoric invovled with any scap action discussion with tom.

The moment your bottom hand elbow leaves connection with your side, forward toward contact, your scap is un-pinching.

Have your wife perform the same test, and allow your bottom hand elbow to begin extending into contact like Pujols does here.

You might get a different result. The scap is "un-pinching" the instant your elbow begins to extend from your side into contact.........

Try to emulate the rear elbow extention of Hamilton in this clip, WITHOUT un-pinching the rear scap.

Now, IF you get to contact with your elbow tight against your side, without releasing your hands from the rear shoulder, the pinch might remain until after contact.

But that's hardly the case into contact in most MLB swings........

If you emulate bottom hand release/extension into contact, AND you can keep the rear scap pinched, you just might be "bionic"........

Do the test again and report back. I'd be curious if she still believes the scap remains pinched as the rear arm leaves the side into contact......

 

[RayR]

Think of it like this. With both hands on an object - like a bat, if one scap moves the other one will also move in the opposite direction. So, if you pinch the rear scap, the front scap is protracting. As the swing unfolds, the front scap starts to retract/elevate quickly (not necessarily an enormous move) and the rear scap depresses/protracts.

It is no more than that.

If you think it is a bad/harmful cue to get too scap happy, I agree it can be a tough teach. Some kids don't get it and try to use the shoulders too much and counter rotate and/or pull off.

 

[tom.guerry]

It stays pinched until contact BM.

for example, watch when the 'S' of pujols gets further from the L.

Aaron is a good one to check out as well. Watch the position of the 4's in the 44:

Be A Better Hitter -- Coiling and Uncoiling

Throwing is a good way to learn scap feel. You unpinch in throwing, not in swinging.

Lots of other good things to feel in throwing too. Hip cock. synch. etc.

 

[BoardMember]

It stays pinched until contact BM.

for example, watch when the 'S' of pujols gets further from the L.

Aaron is a good one to check out as well. Watch the position of the 4's in the 44:

Be A Better Hitter -- Coiling and Uncoiling

Tom, it's a pet peive of yours. I know it. So I don't bother arguing with you about it. It's not a winnable argument because of your requisition on the subject, regardless of facts.

You don't hit, so you don't know. I don't hold it against you however. You're obviously very passionate about the subject, and your need to be right stops you .

The Aaron example justfies my position. His elbow is connected to his side at contact........

Now, IF you get to contact with your elbow tight against your side, without releasing your hands from the rear shoulder, the pinch might remain until after contact.

Due to his extreme linear movement into contact, he stays very compact:

This is a much better example of today's rotational hitter, and extension with rear scap action: