Help with swing, 15YO

[RayR]

No doubt - but isn't that a part of transforming the swing? This morning went through - put them in a SnF set and they can hit off the machine cranked up - turn them back and old habits immediately take over - back to SnF - back to regular - back to modified SnF - back to regular - back to rear leg - back to regular - etc...

What I see going on is that for most of them their timing is deeper (meaning the SnF and rear legs are helping create a deeper contact point) but once in a regular set up the old habits aren't meshing with the new timing right away....

I tend to use the machine much more then maybe I should - because off front toss they aren't stressed as much with speed so they can use the new mechanics and hit well -

They may seem like riddles to you, but they are all questions I have had to ask and answer myself and there seems to be a lot of SnF drill promotion right now.


Mechanics don't matter unless the hitter is under stress due to velocity. If you can sit and wait, then you can get away with simply loading and waiting. The SnF drill teaches you to be sudden from a very specific setup. Adding a forward move later will disrupt the entire drill. So if you perfect the suddenness of the SnF drill, if you do the one legged drill... You learn how to stay back over the rear leg and wait. If you want that to be your load, do the drill. Get the pelvis inside the rear leg and the dynamic of the everything changes.

 

[RayR]

If your muscles are stretched to the max - I wouldn't consider that a dead start swing....it's like popping a balloon and the balloon taking off like crazy - releasing stored pressure....

I'm just trying to understand the discussion. The SnF that's being discussed recently is different than what I thought SnF was.

Do you believe it contributes to a dead-start swing? I'm not trying to make a point, just trying to get an opinion.

 

[4for4]

If your muscles are stretched to the max - I wouldn't consider that a dead start swing....it's like popping a balloon and the balloon taking off like crazy - releasing stored pressure....

Ray -- I get your analogy...but, the body doesn't really work that way...It doesn't really store energy that way...as in create, hold, release...rather -- sudden change in direction or reversal of constant movement. Its more like taking a rubber band back and releasing in all one movement as opposed to bring the rubber band back, holding it, then releasing it.

 

[RayR]

Here is an example of one of my players hitting the ball deeper - is it perfect? Of course not - but who can post a hitter they work with that is perfect after only a couple of sessions using a different set of drills and mechanics. You should be able to see the blur behind her and not out front...

One of differences I see is that the hands are on way up at and past contact - her earlier swing at the bottom the hands are moving slightly down through contact....this is definitely IMO from a deeper swing path coupled with a deeper contact point...

Different swing in same session slowed down - sorry for the quality

Here is she a few weeks ago

Are all of my players adapting this quickly? No - some are struggling with keeping the barrel in the shoulders and not getting it more in their hands so although their timing is changing to hit deeper the barrel is taking too long to get there because it comes around the shoulders.

 

[RayR]

if you have ever shot a arrow from a bow or used a slingshot do you gain anything by pulling back and letting go in continuous action - IMO you pull in both directions - stretch it - and then release one end....the SnF trains that....

Ray -- I get your analogy...but, the body doesn't really work that way...It doesn't really store energy that way...as in create, hold, release...rather -- sudden change in direction or reversal of constant movement. Its more like taking a rubber band back and releasing in all one movement as opposed to bring the rubber band back, holding it, then releasing it.

 

[4for4]

if you have ever shot a arrow from a bow or used a slingshot do you gain anything by pulling back and letting go in continuous action - IMO you pull in both directions - stretch it - and then release one end....the SnF trains that....

Yes, both and a wrist rocket too......and that's really my point...what's your goal (player/archer)?

I'm not talking about creating resistance in the swing and I understand what you are saying...But, you don't pull back a bow to create an ever increasing resistance...to bottom out and lock things up. Even with a bow, you can pull past a point that will give you a diminished return...Same with the swing, especially if its trained in (not saying you are doing that...I don't think you are).

You believe SNF trains resistance, and I'm not here to argue with you. I think its correct in a sense, a modified sense...and I have told you that. A moving ball from a pitcher stresses the system...the goal, IME, is to get the player as close to the reality she faces as possible during training...make it as close to game like as possible. SNF can become the reins...there are no reins in that sense, in the batters box.

 

[lclifton]

if you have ever shot a arrow from a bow or used a slingshot do you gain anything by pulling back and letting go in continuous action - IMO you pull in both directions - stretch it - and then release one end....the SnF trains that....

Then you should keep using snf. Honestly.
Is it possible, and I do not know or suggesting, just asking,,,is it possible that the hitters when working off the machine, are actually stretching THEN firing?

Take a look at the following statements to see if it makes better sense;

Seek / look at a different concept. The body wants to "return to normal". So once it is stretched out, so to speak, it wants to return to a state of normalcy. Does a pre set stretched position when all that is left to do is fire,,,facing a cranked up speed pitching machine----does that help the hitter return to normal or force them to learn how to evolve into stretch, stretching,,,leading seamlessly into fire.


You said, they can hit from the snf position off a machine that is "cranked up." By cranking it up, you are doing them a favor. From where I sit on this anyway. Cranking it up helps them return to normal,,which is what the body wants to do. Less time spent in stretch, no need to learn how to actually get there, hold the stretch for a second or two and here comes the machine thrown ball,,, just stretch, crank up the machine, fire. No need to time anything regarding overall movement, just fire. Great for developing quickness,,,perhaps.

Not knocking the progress I see with your hitters posted here. I'm just wondering if the process under your guidance could be refined in some way where the transition from snf position, to regular stance is less "painful".

Or is the goal of putting the hitter into a stretched position solely a means to an end....that being learning to use the hands as the rest of the process is pretty much complete?

 

[RayR]

Oh no doubt - you can certainly get out of position by trying to over stretch using the wrong body parts and muscles....

I have said this elsewhere that getting in the cage now in a modified SnF set up it feels like the ball will never get there....is it my brain tricking me because A) I am stretched in ways I never was before and I want to GO and/or B) maybe I do a better job of turning the barrel into that stretched load thereby giving me a feeling of even more time and/or C) when I do turn the barrel into the load from this modified position I am moving the barrel along a much deeper and longer path then I had been used to??

Which all goes to say that I am trying to help hitters conquer the below challenge.

A moving ball from a pitcher stresses the system...the goal, IME, is to get the player as close to the reality she faces as possible during training

Do these drills help this hitter move the contact point deeper going from this a typical swing with a lot or movement to create momentum

To Friday struggling with handling letting the ball get deeper but doing a better job arresting all of the previous movement

To this morning where it's an adjustment to cover the outer half...and a smoother barrel turn...and a much better looking set up re: the back and much better control of her body...

 

[redhotcoach]

......crap, never mind....not going to get a straight answer anyway.

 

[RayR]

Hi Loren,

man you guys from AZ are putting me through my paces today, lol.

We use the SnF for front toss as well where we can mix location and speed....all part of the learning process....rear leg swings to snf swing to a regular swing to rear leg, etc....all designed to get the hitter to swing behind the rear hip...

As I just posted the SnF helps arrest unneeded movement to create momentum and replace that with using resistance of certain body parts and muscles against each other.

Here is one of my other hitters left to her own devices going back to old habits and moves

Here is she after asking nicely to please tighten it up...

And here is she after me asking her to tighten the stance up a bit just to see how she would solve the problem

Then you should keep using snf. Honestly.
Is it possible, and I do not know or suggesting, just asking,,,is it possible that the hitters when working off the machine, are actually stretching THEN firing?

Take a look at the following statements to see if it makes better sense;

Seek / look at a different concept. The body wants to "return to normal". So once it is stretched out, so to speak, it wants to return to a state of normalcy. Does a pre set stretched position when all that is left to do is fire,,,facing a cranked up speed pitching machine----does that help the hitter return to normal or force them to learn how to evolve into stretch, stretching,,,leading seamlessly into fire.


You said, they can hit from the snf position off a machine that is "cranked up." By cranking it up, you are doing them a favor. From where I sit on this anyway. Cranking it up helps them return to normal,,which is what the body wants to do. Less time spent in stretch, no need to learn how to actually get there, hold the stretch for a second or two and here comes the machine thrown ball,,, just stretch, crank up the machine, fire. No need to time anything regarding overall movement, just fire. Great for developing quickness,,,perhaps.

Not knocking the progress I see with your hitters posted here. I'm just wondering if the process under your guidance could be refined in some way where the transition from snf position, to regular stance is less "painful".

Or is the goal of putting the hitter into a stretched position solely a means to an end....that being learning to use the hands as the rest of the process is pretty much complete?