Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

Register Log in

grip

May 22, 2008
351
0
NW Pennsylvania
I read in an earlier thread that the traditional "door knocking knuckle "alignment may not produce the best bat speeds. I have been teaching the Mike Candrea hitting style to the best of my ability. Can anyone shed any light on this?
 

Aug 4, 2008
2,364
0
Lexington,Ohio
Actually Mike has changed how he teaches the grip, but this is new and has not made it out yet. Don Slaught did a study and we tested it measuring BSI. We were able to gain 3 to 5 on BSI by teaching the top hand to be offset, so the hand moves and lines up the knuckles during the swing. If you have a bat speed meter, you can do the same thing. Two methods wrap plastics wrap where the top hand is on the bat so it will move, or put a sock on the top hand so it moves on the bat. We teach only the bottom three fingers to grip the bat with the top hand. By allowing the top hand to rotate on the bat, you can gain bat speed. Now we do not teach you to align the knuckles, but allow them to align during the swing. One more knew thing that has not came up yet is what we call the bucket drill and stepping on the inside of the lead foot on a flex front legg into the side of a bucket filled with concrete or sand. This was another way we have found to improve that Don and Sue were testing and has not been posted yet.
 
May 12, 2008
2,217
0
They continue to improve and figure things out. Good on the top hand being allowed to rotate on the bat. Putting a batting glove on the top hand was always a bad idea for just that reason. Good on the forcing the relatively closed front foot for training. Hopefully they dump the rock skipping cue soon. These are all ideas familiar to those who have been reading setpro and or Englishbey these past years.
 
Aug 4, 2008
2,364
0
Lexington,Ohio
You are correct. Englishbey and many others are on my reading list. So you don't like the idea of skipping a rock across the pond with the back hand. I do like the frisbee with two hands. I only use the rock skipping with the real young ones, when I'm showing them to lead with the back elbow . That is why I like the hammer drill the best.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
For a patterns based decision about grip. the MLB swing requires early torquing of the handle for resistance and control of the swing by the hands.

To apply torque easily, it helps to have more of a choked grip and elbows far apart early.

Lining second knuckles up is fine if you want to emphasize a flat hands release throuch contact, but this is not necessary for a good relelase and the door knocker makes it very hard for the hands to control a quick adjustable swing with early batspeed and late adjustability.
 
May 12, 2008
2,217
0
You are correct. Englishbey and many others are on my reading list. So you don't like the idea of skipping a rock across the pond with the back hand. I do like the frisbee with two hands. I only use the rock skipping with the real young ones, when I'm showing them to lead with the back elbow . That is why I like the hammer drill the best.
As I told the college coach after he watched Slaught and Englishbey in an impromptu debate at Spring Klein some years back, rock skipping is throwing. Throwing is leading with the elbow to form a loop to deliver energy. Rock skipping requires throwing with the forearm laid over away from the shoulder to get the rock flat to the water. That's a perfect description of the bat drag position. Analysis 21 through 25. Now I know the software deals with this and I know Mike or Don would put the hitter in a different and better position. But that wouldn't be the position a kid would get in to skip a rock. IOW, the cue is likely to cause a problem with some kids.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
When you watch Candrea describe/use the cue, he is careful to show that what he means involves not getting the elbow too far ahead or behind the hands, but he likes the elbow leading a little which IS typical of MLB swings.

So lets not misrepresent the cues/interpretation.

BACK TO HOME PAGE

See Candrea #38, rotation and especially
Candrea #43additon and connection drill explaining how throwing and swinging are similar in a position you get to that enbles "addition and connection" (efficient segmentation/kinetic link/summation of velocity/proximal to distal sequencing).
 
Jul 17, 2008
67
0
When you watch Candrea describe/use the cue, he is careful to show that what he means involves not getting the elbow too far ahead or behind the hands, but he likes the elbow leading a little which IS typical of MLB swings.

So lets not misrepresent the cues/interpretation.
Could be true.

Most people DON'T watch him in person.

They watch his video du jour (RVP), where this ISN'T emphasized.

Skipping a rock is a very familiar action to almost anyone, and when they hear the cue, they will simply apply the familiar action of skipping a rock to the swing.


If someone believes "when I say red, I mean the same color as the sky," that isn't going to work. People will subsequently hear "red" and think firetruck, NOT sky.

Words mean things. And idiomatically, skipping a rock means flattening the forearm. Period.

And it is a HORRIBLE cue for the average youth hitter.
 
Jul 17, 2008
67
0
One more knew thing that has not came up yet is what we call the bucket drill and stepping on the inside of the lead foot on a flex front legg into the side of a bucket filled with concrete or sand. This was another way we have found to improve that Don and Sue were testing and has not been posted yet.
Even Tom will have a difficult time reconciling this with Epstein. Who wants the front foot open significantly at launch. (he says 45 degrees or more, but all of the hitters he works with on videos, etc. are about 70 degrees.)

This artificially opens the hips without anywhere near the power that would otherwise be available, because youth hitters DON'T rotate into footplant like elite hitters do. (And never could with the Epstein no-stride approach).

Epstein's approach succeeds in opening the hips before the hands move - not a bad objective - but robs some of the available power.

Others, such as Nyman and I'm pretty sure Englishbey want to see a much more closed front foot. Anatomically, it brings different muscles into play and adds significant power to the swing.

Glad to hear that Slaught et al have reached the same conclusion.


One more example - of dozens - that indicates Epstein and RVP / Slaught / Candrea are NOT saying the same thing or describing the same thing. THEY don't think so, and no one in the world thinks so.

Except Tom.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
skeptic-

Take some hacks.

Slaught and Epstein are describing the same pattern.

Nyman and Englishbey an entirely different one.

The thing that has the greatest effrect on making the patterns separate/incompatible/divergent is the way the scaps work to connect the upper limbs to the body as explained by Hardy/PLANE TRUTH FOR GOLFERS.

IF you think the arms are swung by turning the scaps around the body you get an entirely different pattern and feel (PCR) from passive scaps which tilt and connect with stretch and fire created by hands setting plane while hips turn body in more level plane (MLB).


One thing that might help you is to understand that IF you want to keep the front foot closed and STILL have an MLB pattern, then you either have to load the hands way back and in OR you have to get off the plate and use a long lead arm lever, both of which result in loss of swing quickness as compared to the belly-up end of the MLB spectrum which Epstein is describing.

Aaron as righty/Bonds as lefty are poster boys for belly-up. Brett for off the plate. Each has its plusses and minusses, but both are the same basic pattern.

neither one is swinging their scaps around the body to power the swing the way Nyman and Englishbey describe it.
 

Latest threads

Forum statistics

Threads
33,041
Messages
476,619
Members
14,880
Latest member
StuntWelder
Top