Hitting Questions?

[tom.guerry]

BM - Aaron has the same pattern as modern day hitters. All MLB hitters keep the back scap pinched as part of the basic pattern/sequence.

MTS-

Back scap needs to stay pinched to give front scap option of pinching (inside adjustment) or not on approach to contact

 

[tom.guerry]

Englishbey describing the very different Nyman/PCR scap action:

On the other hand here's what Paul Nyman recently said about the functional role of the shoulders [ "scapula loading-unloading"] in a high-level swing:

"It's not about generating longer distance to apply force to the bat.
"What it IS about is stiffening the muscles so that you can have an instaneous transfer from loading to unloading., ie , no "slop".What much of scapula loading is about is generating the "cusp".The cusp is an instantaneous change in direction.
"Acusp is NOT: loading ....wait....unloading.A cusp is bang bang;load-unload.

In the first above clip ,right as the ball passes Abreu,you can see the back scapula quickly load--and will quickly unload an instant later. [what he does with his hands/ arms/shoulders up to that point is simply a function of his rhythm and tempo---which is simply the manner that he loads the entire body to create momentum of the body and barrel to quickly "turn into the ball".

And it helps in watching in these slo-mo clips to realize that this entire load -unload process takes less that ONE SECOND [starting from first movement of the body].

The above quote from Paul Nyman is just a small part of what he has written about with regards to "scapula loading -unloading".

And is entirely consistent with what he has said for at least 5 years about the critical role of the shoulder complex in terms of the transfer of momentum from the body to the barrel ,and in terms of creating greater efficiency of the swing path.

"Scapula loading -unloading, funtionally speaking ,is what high-level hitters do to quickly [and accurately in terms of the direction of the force and movement]"get the barrel into the momentum path developed by the body.

The form ,ie, the visible movement of the arms ,hands, shoulders and the magnitude and rate etc, engaged in this process of loading -unloading the shoulders will ,of course vary.

The function ----transferring momentum and creating the "cusp" will not .

What Abreu is doing ---from a functional perspective ----is not doing anything any differently than any other high-level hitter.

He is loading and unloading his shoulders so as to transfer momentum through the shoulder complex so as to quickly get the barrel into the momentum path developed by the body ...........

Let me try to redirect Tom's and Donny's attention back to my initial comments.

I compared what they think they see ,what they think is important in terms of "arm action",with what can be found on pgs. 54-55 of Mike Epstein.{ the main points in the text and pictures essentially are the bat stays at perpindicular to the ground from stride to launch and the back elbow stays down with no movement of the back shoulder.]

I then very briefly described what Paul Nyman has described as "scapula loading" ,ie rapid horizontal abduction-adduction of the shoulders , and further briefly described the FUNTIONAL role that this plays in terms of creating momentum transfer from body to bat.And how it creates efficiency in terms of getting the barrel into the momentum path of the the body.

I further pointed out that the rate and magnitude of the "scapula loading-unloading" will vary amoung elite hitters,ie the form varies ,the function does not.

These comments all derive from hundreds of pgs. of "stuff" found in the Setpro forums regarding "scapula loading-unloading"....


From the time of the old "checkmate" thread before joebad came over to the dark side:

Abreu clips from the derby

 

[BoardMember]

I especially liked finding this in the thread........

The aggenda hasn't changed much in over four years........

You in fact ,leave out ,invent, mischaracterized ,"reinterpret" ad nauseum, all kinds of things having to do with Setpro material.

And not only are you misrepresenting Paul's stuff when you do this .

You are also misrepresenting what I teach---even if its indirect.

Its certainly understandable to have differences regarding how to understand --and teach ---swinging a bat and hitting a ball.

And it is certainly understandable that there are going to be people who DO NOT like Paul Nyman [or me for that matter].

Paul Nyman can and will piss people off.

And he has Pissed Tom off.

And Tom is now ----and has been---saying whatever he can to "get back " at Paul Nyman.

And has lost all hint of objectivity in terms of Setpro "stuff".

And I think the issue of "scapula load" ---matching what Paul says with ,Tom , with Mike fairly clearly reveals this lack of objectivity.

In my mind decisively .

And I will ask Tom ----again ---to stop the mischaracterizations of what Paul has written about [for years in some cases as is the case with scapula loading].

Its clear that you do not like Paul Nyman.And maybe you should just start a thread and just tell us all how much you personally dislike his "syle".Go ahead and fully vent about him personally .

But its time ---past time ---to move on from the mischaracterizations of his material .

And either directly of indirectly ,my material.

Have the maturity of someone like "swingbuster " ,who tries to be very objective,is trying to learn still from people he may disagree with [or that disagree with him or his manner of instruction]

Please do so soon.Its time ---past time ---to move on.

 

[tom.guerry]

yes, BM, that is the main reason for posting this. At this point, Steve had given up being civil and so had I. Donny was still trying to be nice, but it was not to be.

You came in late on discussions that started in the late 90's at Hudgen's site and have metastasized all over since then.

Content wise at the point of the Abreu thread I did not know what Steve was teaching or whether Nyman had further developed his scap information.

Nyman is worth talking about and critiquing because he has very good and very bad information and because his information has spread virally, primarily to the fastpitch community via PCR related concepts.

Nyman's scap emphasis was very important and well described in throwing overhand/baseball pitching.

He initially assumed it would be important in swinging, then he lost interest during which time we parted ways. Then apparently he had emphasized things again by the time of this post. What Steve reports is the same action as used for overhand throw, which is wrong for the MLB swing. Steve also gets the kinesiological terms confused.

When you describe loading/unloading and pinching/unpinching of scaps in terms of aBduction or ADduction in the horizontal plane, the AB- and AD- are in reference to the most closely related midline structure which is the spinal column since the scaps are posterior body parts, so:

pinching/loading is horizontal ADduction, and

UNpinching/UN loading is horizontal ABduction, so

loading/unloading is horizontal ADduction/ABduction, not the other way around.

When Nyman first used these kinesiological he used them correctly as horizontal ADduction/ABduction, but then he started getting very confused, in part because he used voice recognition which could not tell the difference and did not proofread which ended up confusing most readers.

Another way this action is often described in the literature is as scap REtraction/PROtraction which in this case is in reference to the front of the body for PRO- and moving to the back of the body for RE-.

so scap load/unload is usually in reference to BACK scap and is same as:

pinch/unpinch, and

horizontal ADuction/horizontalABduction, and

REtraction/PROtraction

among other possibilities.

Nyman, as it turns out, never figured out how the scaps work in the various motions, nor has he ever appreciated their KEY role in determining overall swing pattern as Hardy figured out in golf.

Scaps work symmetrically in throw and asymmetrically in MLB swing with back scap staying pinched as has been described in this thread.

As time went on, I had numerous unhappy PCR followers send me video of Steve teaching and the swings being produced which I shared with Donny/swingbuster. This is when it became obvious to us that what was being taught was not just an alternative, but a motion incompatible with the MLB swing pattern that prevented swinging like MLB hitters.

I did not know how Nyman had or had not evolved until I took his recent free ebook offer to see what he recomended. This is where the incompatible pieces are highlighted:

1- abandoning motor program theory that emphasizes upper and lower and synch programs
2-gettingscap action wrong/encouraging turning of shoulders/sliding of scaps around torso
3-recommending external rotation of lead arm before contact to increase range of motion for clubhead release

These are all non-MLB/1 plane pattern forcing/compensatory elements that must be avoided to swing in the 2plane.MLB pattern.

A further prohibition involving the mistaken idea that back arm external rotation was a CAUSE of "bat drag" has also been incorporated at some point into the PCR blueprint/guidelines/codebook/dogma which if followed also forces drag and the non-MLB pattern.

I think this arose from Steve not undertsanding our conversations about arm action and how the synching motor program is derived from the lower limbs actions "mirroring" (Nyman term when he was a believer "mapping") the upper limb, especially synched external rotation of back arm and front leg as described by Hodge.

See this entry in the famous Siggy site trying to make the PCR dogma accessible, equating bat drag and back arm external rotation:

"Bat drag - back arm externally rotates at the elbow - like you're losing in arm wrestling - and the rear elbow ends up getting ahead of the hands during the early portion of the swing. Causes a long, slow swing - albeit one which often has a lot of power when solid contact does occur."

From "siggy's site".


Follow these aspects of the Nyman PCRW blueprint and you will be unable to learn the MLB pattern. Unable to develop early batspeed and late adjustment of a matching contact zone.

 

[BoardMember]

Sorry tom, that post is too long to read..........however, this is my point of contension with the rock skip cue for hitting

"Bat drag - back arm externally rotates at the elbow - like you're losing in arm wrestling - and the rear elbow ends up getting ahead of the hands during the early portion of the swing.

If you watch one of my infielders throw, using high level 3/4 infield throwing mechanics (optimal 1-7 axis backspin), you'll see the "natural" external rotation creating necessary drag for whip........But is HUGELY sub-optimal for hitting.......because the simalarities to hitting END at max load........Prior to the arm action throwing mechanics of "skipping a rock".......

yes, BM, that is the main reason for posting this. At this point, Steve had given up being civil and so had I. Donny was still trying to be nice, but it was not to be.

You came in late on discussions that started in the late 90's at Hudgen's site and have metastasized all over since then.

Content wise at the point of the Abreu thread I did not know what Steve was teaching or whether Nyman had further developed his scap information.

Nyman is worth talking about and critiquing because he has very good and very bad information and because his information has spread virally, primarily to the fastpitch community via PCR related concepts.

Nyman's scap emphasis was very important and well described in throwing overhand/baseball pitching.

He initially assumed it would be important in swinging, then he lost interest during which time we parted ways. Then apparently he had emphasized things again by the time of this post. What Steve reports is the same action as used for overhand throw, which is wrong for the MLB swing. Steve also gets the kinesiological terms confused.

When you describe loading/unloading and pinching/unpinching of scaps in terms of aBduction or ADduction in the horizontal plane, the AB- and AD- are in reference to the most closely related midline structure which is the spinal column since the scaps are posterior body parts, so:

pinching/loading is horizontal ADduction, and

UNpinching/UN loading is horizontal ABduction, so

loading/unloading is horizontal ADduction/ABduction, not the other way around.

When Nyman first used these kinesiological he used them correctly as horizontal ADduction/ABduction, but then he started getting very confused, in part because he used voice recognition which could not tell the difference and did not proofread which ended up confusing most readers.

Another way this action is often described in the literature is as scap REtraction/PROtraction which in this case is in reference to the front of the body for PRO- and moving to the back of the body for RE-.

so scap load/unload is usually in reference to BACK scap and is same as:

pinch/unpinch, and

horizontal ADuction/horizontalABduction, and

REtraction/PROtraction

among other possibilities.

Nyman, as it turns out, never figured out how the scaps work in the various motions, nor has he ever appreciated their KEY role in determining overall swing pattern as Hardy figured out in golf.

Scaps work symmetrically in throw and asymmetrically in MLB swing with back scap staying pinched as has been described in this thread.

As time went on, I had numerous unhappy PCR followers send me video of Steve teaching and the swings being produced which I shared with Donny/swingbuster. This is when it became obvious to us that what was being taught was not just an alternative, but a motion incompatible with the MLB swing pattern that prevented swinging like MLB hitters.

I did not know how Nyman had or had not evolved until I took his recent free ebook offer to see what he recomended. This is where the incompatible pieces are highlighted:

1- abandoning motor program theory that emphasizes upper and lower and synch programs
2-gettingscap action wrong/encouraging turning of shoulders/sliding of scaps around torso
3-recommending external rotation of lead arm before contact to increase range of motion for clubhead release

These are all non-MLB/1 plane pattern forcing/compensatory elements that must be avoided to swing in the 2plane.MLB pattern.

A further prohibition involving the mistaken idea that back arm external rotation was a CAUSE of "bat drag" has also been incorporated at some point into the PCR blueprint/guidelines/codebook/dogma which if followed also forces drag and the non-MLB pattern.

I think this arose from Steve not undertsanding our conversations about arm action and how the synching motor program is derived from the lower limbs actions "mirroring" (Nyman term when he was a believer "mapping") the upper limb, especially synched external rotation of back arm and front leg as described by Hodge.

See this entry in the famous Siggy site trying to make the PCR dogma accessible, equating bat drag and back arm external rotation:

"Bat drag - back arm externally rotates at the elbow - like you're losing in arm wrestling - and the rear elbow ends up getting ahead of the hands during the early portion of the swing. Causes a long, slow swing - albeit one which often has a lot of power when solid contact does occur."

From "siggy's site".


Follow these aspects of the Nyman PCRW blueprint and you will be unable to learn the MLB pattern. Unable to develop early batspeed and late adjustment of a matching contact zone.

 

[Wellphyt]

I've been wondering how people can look at an identical video clip of a MLB hitter and not agree on what they see. Now I think I've figured out why.

It sounds like some people see the straightening of the back elbow prior to contact (above video clips) as a learned movement that is to be taught as technique.

That's not at all what I see. What I see is a hitter who is trying to maintain his arms in the ideal "slotted rear elbow/L shaped front elbow" box position and is making an instinctive "on the-fly" adjustment to the location of the pitch, or the speed of the pitch.

Maybe I'm not correctly understanding what is being said here...but it sounds like some are saying that the extension of the back elbow prior to contact is a learned scap related unloading movement that can be taught.

If so, I think that is incorrect and will ultimately lead to a longer and longer swing.

In my experience teaching my daughter and a handful of others, the hardest part of the swing for a hitter to master is maintaining the box from launch to contact. Hitters want to invariably extend their arms too soon. There is no way I am going to place any thought in my daughter's head that it's ok to begin straightening her back elbow prior to contact. Even just a little bit. I know from experience that it will start at a little bit, and eventually grow to a lot.

If I've totally misunderstood what is being discussed, sorry. Sometimes it's hard to figure out what people actually mean on a message board.

 

[tom.guerry]

BM-

Let me know when you've read things.

Wellphyt -

There are stages of learning and variation in what you have to focus on.

I agree you do not want to encourage widening the angle in the back elbow as you learn the MLB pattern.

I personally prefer the Epstein approach to begin with with learning feel of torque of body/coil of torso as power generator (torque drill) and connection enforced by bat on deltoid. Then you learn how to stop lunging by tilting the shoulders and how this relates to up/down adjustment (numbers drills).

The next iteration of drills requires good enough arm action to enhance the basic feel/sequence with bat off deltoid (create a better torso coiling/cusp and timing/sequence of unloading) and an important part of this is retaining the angle in the back elbow. Another part is recognizing the feel of synched back arm and front leg external rotation as the body coils into toe touch, very similar to the overhand throw action.

At some point you will need to focus on teaching a good release/extension sequence (Candrea/Enquist lead arm extension descriptions are wrong,see RVP links, where they stick to the frisbee/S-A-W sequence) which can be accomplished with various cues/drills such as Lau "lead arm extension/top hand release" or palm up extension of back arm, or unbroken top hand wrist at contact/etc.

Widening the back arm elbow angle prematurely ruins the swing early, so you are right to be careful about this.

Mankin also has very good info and drills in this extension/release area.

 

[BoardMember]

Assuming you're speaking to me, I'll set the record straight. The release of the hands from the back shoulder into contact isn't something you should teach. It's something that should happen as a result of a proper rotational torque, hand path and arm action that begins upstream as momentum passes from the core and out to the futhest parts of the sequence........The hands should "fly off the shoulder", not be pushed off the shoulder......

Also, unlike you, I would never teach a hitter to "maintain the box" into contact. Placing restrictions on a hitter to maintain the box into contact severely limits rotational (angular) acceleration values to be passed though the kinetic link to the bat head, as well as the adjustability that proper arm action is responsible for......as well as limiting the top hand throw (long through the zone) past the fulcum point of the bottom hand.

So, in essence NO, that isn't why people see things differently.......

Some people think the hands actively torque the handle at launch, and others feel that this action happens later in the swing as the hands release from the shoulder and throw the bat head into contact.......

And it's possible that others don't think the hands can play any role in the addition (passage) equation............

Some believe that rotation of the hips start from the core muscles of the pelvic region, while others think rotation is a result of good push off the rear leg and a good block of the front side, and others think rotation is a result of hands telling the body to rotate once the hips have cleared the opening stage..........

All of those examples are represented here by various hitting instructors..........

I've been wondering how people can look at an identical video clip of a MLB hitter and not agree on what they see. Now I think I've figured out why.

It sounds like some people see the straightening of the back elbow prior to contact (above video clips) as a learned movement that is to be taught as technique.

That's not at all what I see. What I see is a hitter who is trying to maintain his arms in the ideal "slotted rear elbow/L shaped front elbow" box position and is making an instinctive "on the-fly" adjustment to the location of the pitch, or the speed of the pitch.

Maybe I'm not correctly understanding what is being said here...but it sounds like some are saying that the extension of the back elbow prior to contact is a learned scap related unloading movement that can be taught.

If so, I think that is incorrect and will ultimately lead to a longer and longer swing.

In my experience teaching my daughter and a handful of others, the hardest part of the swing for a hitter to master is maintaining the box from launch to contact. Hitters want to invariably extend their arms too soon. There is no way I am going to place any thought in my daughter's head that it's ok to begin straightening her back elbow prior to contact. Even just a little bit. I know from experience that it will start at a little bit, and eventually grow to a lot.

If I've totally misunderstood what is being discussed, sorry. Sometimes it's hard to figure out what people actually mean on a message board.

 

[Wellphyt]

Also, unlike you, I would never teach a hitter to "maintain the box" into contact. Placing restrictions on a hitter to maintain the box into contact severely limits rotational (angular) acceleration values to be passed though the kinetic link to the bat head, as well as the adjustability that proper arm action is responsible for......as well as limiting the top hand throw (long through the zone) past the fulcum point of the bottom hand.

The below link should take you to a swing analysis of Pujol's swing by Chris Oleary.

An Analysis of Albert Pujols' Swing

Frame 38 and 39 illustrates the rear elbow position that I believe elite hitters strive for. According to one noted hitting guru, hitters are only able to achieve their optimum swing 5% of the time. The other 95% of the time they have incorrectly guessed the type of pitch, location of pitch or speed of pitch (or in the case of Andrew Jones, all 3) and are making instintive on the-fly adjustments. Which in many cases includes increasing the angle of the back elbow prior to contact and/or tilting.

In the linked Pujols clip, I believe Pujols got the pitch he was looking for, at the speed he was looking for, in the location he was looking for and put his optimum swing on it.

 

[BoardMember]

Wellphyt, I'm fairly confident the clip you refer to as "optimum" is an inside pitch that Pujols adjusted to by narrowing/tightening the radius for contact.

The left turn and power V toward 3B is a pretty good "tell" as to the location.

So, you can "marry" that sequence of Pujols hitting an inside pitch, and call it his best 5% and hope your students hit mostly inside pitches, or we can look at a much greater cross section, which shows a completely different release/arm action into contact......With release/extension through contact (long throught the zone).

Even the inside pitch shown above exibits extension through contact. For that to happen, sequence intent must be initiated before the contact frame.

IMO, a study of several MLB swings that show optimum contact will show extension at the elbow into contact except when inside pitches necessitate a very narrow radius, and even then, showing some extension into contact.........Negating true "box maintainence" into contact as optimal...........And allowing hitter to hit through all parts of the zone.........

Maintaining the box into contact would surely limit a hitters ability to hit the entire zone:

The below link should take you to a swing analysis of Pujol's swing by Chris Oleary.

An Analysis of Albert Pujols' Swing

Frame 38 and 39 illustrates the rear elbow position that I believe elite hitters strive for. According to one noted hitting guru, hitters are only able to achieve their optimum swing 5% of the time. The other 95% of the time they have incorrectly guessed the type of pitch, location of pitch or speed of pitch (or in the case of Andrew Jones, all 3) and are making instintive on the-fly adjustments. Which in many cases includes increasing the angle of the back elbow prior to contact and/or tilting.

In the linked Pujols clip, I believe Pujols got the pitch he was looking for, at the speed he was looking for, in the location he was looking for and put his optimum swing on it.