good read I think -

[Cagman]

And he doesn't have to go to his partner. If he didn't see a tag then, she's safe. And if his partner told he should come to him because you were professional I would have told him he is flat out wrong. Period. Now that being said, if there is any doubt in my mind that I might have missed something then yes, I will go to my partner. But, if no doubt, you will have to live with my call. Not being a jerk, it's what I have been taught at every Umpire camp I have been to.

So some umps are just jackasses to be jackasses? Is the goal not to try to get the call accurate? There is no way he could’ve seen the tag, so it was just being stubborn?

I don’t understand the mentality that a referee or umpire in any sport would not want to get the call as accurate as possible. Had he conferred with the Homeplate up and upheld the call, I would’ve had no issue with that.

Being hardheaded is not something anyone should be proud of.

 

[CoachKevin]

So some umps are just jackasses to be jackasses? Is the goal not to try to get the call accurate? There is no way he could’ve seen the tag, so it was just being stubborn?

I don’t understand the mentality that a referee or umpire in any sport would not want to get the call as accurate as possible. Had he conferred with the Homeplate up and upheld the call, I would’ve had no issue with that.

Being hardheaded is not something anyone should be proud of.

Tournament this past weekend, a close play at 2B. Umpire called our girl out... HC called time (from my position, it appeared she beat the throw) and approached the FU... First thing out of the umpire's mouth was, "are you questioning my judgement?" HC says it appeared to me that she was safe, can you check with your partner and see if he saw anything different? FU responds, Nope, she's out

All in all doesn't sound that bad... just the initial are you questioning my judgement statement... I mean come on really

 

[Cagman]

Tournament this past weekend, a close play at 2B. Umpire called our girl out... HC called time (from my position, it appeared she beat the throw) and approached the FU... First thing out of the umpire's mouth was, "are you questioning my judgement?" HC says it appeared to me that she was safe, can you check with your partner and see if he saw anything different? FU responds, Nope, she's out

All in all doesn't sound that bad... just the initial are you questioning my judgement statement... I mean come on really

Yeah, I get what you’re saying. I have run into many a very good umpires who will explain to me the rules. And others that don’t.

 

[marriard]

Tournament this past weekend, a close play at 2B. Umpire called our girl out... HC called time (from my position, it appeared she beat the throw) and approached the FU... First thing out of the umpire's mouth was, "are you questioning my judgement?" HC says it appeared to me that she was safe, can you check with your partner and see if he saw anything different? FU responds, Nope, she's out

All in all doesn't sound that bad... just the initial are you questioning my judgement statement... I mean come on really

The judgement statement is out of line... however the HC then goes ahead and questions his judgement. Totally 'fishing' for a different call - "I didn't like your call can you get another call from someone else". Nope. You have to tell me what you believe I missed that I didn't see.

 

[bmakj]

The judgement statement is out of line... however the HC then goes ahead and questions his judgement. Totally 'fishing' for a different call - "I didn't like your call can you get another call from someone else". Nope. You have to tell me what you believe I missed that I didn't see.

maybe simply further away is better in some cases, as close up you may get hyper focused on either the foot/hand vs the ball/glove, and have to shift focus from one to the other as play is happening. just something to think about farther away, easier to concentrate on both at same time.

 

[The Man In Blue]

So some umps are just jackasses to be jackasses? Is the goal not to try to get the call accurate? There is no way he could’ve seen the tag, so it was just being stubborn?

I don’t understand the mentality that a referee or umpire in any sport would not want to get the call as accurate as possible. Had he conferred with the Homeplate up and upheld the call, I would’ve had no issue with that.

Being hardheaded is not something anyone should be proud of.

Yes. And some coaches are jackasses just to be jackasses. It isn’t a one-way street.

As marriard pointed out (and has been said on here many times) ... if the coach has something I may have missed (e.g., “It looked like she pulled her foot and you may not have seen it from your angle”) and it is something that my partner may have been able to see, then I have no reason not to go to my partner as a professional courtesy.

However, “I think she was safe” (of course you do coach) is another way of saying “I just don’t like your call”. That is NOT cause for a coach to come out and most definitely is NOT justification for me to go to my partner.

Umpires should not allow coaches to come out on fishing expeditions looking for the call they want. There are coaches who will come out even when they know they are wrong just to attempt to bully umpires (particularly newer, younger, or female umpires) into either changing a call or for the purpose of just screwing them up the rest of the game. Then there are just plain dumb coaches who think this is how they should behave. No. The umpire should shut that down ASAP.

Your post is all over the place and smacks of a coach baiting a hook. You said there is NO WAY he could have seen the tag, but then you say you would have been OK if they had conferred and the PU upheld the call. “But don‘t you need to get it right” is often the euphemism for “you need to call it my way.”

 

[marriard]

maybe simply further away is better in some cases, as close up you may get hyper focused on either the foot/hand vs the ball/glove, and have to shift focus from one to the other as play is happening. just something to think about farther away, easier to concentrate on both at same time.

Umpriing mechanics include the goal distance from the play for you to make a call. And what you focus on. And how to progress through it.

That said, believe me I KNOW you always don't have the best angle even when you are in the right position - and 2-man umpiring means you are out of position on certain calls. I have ZERO issue asking for more info when appropriate. If I am missing an element of my call I will go ask before the coach even has a chance to come out. I want to get calls right as much as possible.

However if the HC comes out and says "I thought she was safe, ask your partner" or even "I believe your partner has a better angle" or "I think she got in there first". Can't argue judgement calls and you can't just come out fishing for a different call. You have to give me something specific - an element of the out that you think was missed that you saw or believe you saw that is not judgement based.

"I believe I saw the runners hand get into the bag before the tag was applied." or "I saw her tag on this side of the play as she was still not at the base" or "the ball was on the ground when she tagged her" , "the fielder's foot was not on the bag when she caught the ball" or something like this.

.... OK, now I have something to work with, and if I am not certain of one of those elements, I have something specific I can ask for more info on. I can go over to my partner and it will go something like this "I saw the following; Coach is asking whether X happened which I did not see because X. What did you see?"

There is every chance in the rules and mechanics to get things right. And I am not saying that every umpire understands this or follows this or is educated on this or isn't stubborn or whatever - I am just saying this is how it is meant to work. As I said in another thread - I did my first travel game after a one hour clinic but have dedicated myself to getting better. Some umpires may be out there on just that clinic or are just not all that interested or have the time or the resources to go beyond that.

 

[Cagman]

Yes. And some coaches are jackasses just to be jackasses. It isn’t a one-way street.

As marriard pointed out (and has been said on here many times) ... if the coach has something I may have missed (e.g., “It looked like she pulled her foot and you may not have seen it from your angle”) and it is something that my partner may have been able to see, then I have no reason not to go to my partner as a professional courtesy.

However, “I think she was safe” (of course you do coach) is another way of saying “I just don’t like your call”. That is NOT cause for a coach to come out and most definitely is NOT justification for me to go to my partner.

Umpires should not allow coaches to come out on fishing expeditions looking for the call they want. There are coaches who will come out even when they know they are wrong just to attempt to bully umpires (particularly newer, younger, or female umpires) into either changing a call or for the purpose of just screwing them up the rest of the game. Then there are just plain dumb coaches who think this is how they should behave. No. The umpire should shut that down ASAP.

Your post is all over the place and smacks of a coach baiting a hook. You said there is NO WAY he could have seen the tag, but then you say you would have been OK if they had conferred and the PU upheld the call. “But don‘t you need to get it right” is often the euphemism for “you need to call it my way.”

I might not of been clear. The ump said she DID NOT tag her. We had the dugout and every fan in the place sitting within 25 feet from 3B and saw the tag. The ump from behind SS didn't see the tag on the throw from home. If the goal of an Ump is to just make a call and that's the end of it, then he was in the right. If the goal is to try and gather all the information and make a correct all then he was in the wrong.

It's really that simple. It was not a judgement call.

And yes, had the 2 umps conferred and the call remained the same, I'd have lived with it. Wouldn't of agreed, but I can live with a call I don't like. Everyone is human. I've screwed up counts and everything else before myself. Humans make mistakes. But I don't sit there and claim the count is still 2-2 when the ump and 2 other coaches tell me it's 2-1. I accept I made a mistake and move on.

All I was politely asking for was for him to please check with the PU, who had about the same view I did, to see what he saw. The PU came up to me later in the day and said had the FU asked for his help, he would of called her out as the tag was obvious.

Hardly a fishing expedition.

But I do agree that plenty of coaches argue everything just to argue everything.

 

[marriard]

I might not of been clear. The ump said she DID NOT tag her. We had the dugout and every fan in the place sitting within 25 feet from 3B and saw the tag. The ump from behind SS didn't see the tag on the throw from home. If the goal of an Ump is to just make a call and that's the end of it, then he was in the right. If the goal is to try and gather all the information and make a correct all then he was in the wrong.

It's really that simple. It was not a judgement call.

And yes, had the 2 umps conferred and the call remained the same, I'd have lived with it. Wouldn't of agreed, but I can live with a call I don't like. Everyone is human. I've screwed up counts and everything else before myself. Humans make mistakes. But I don't sit there and claim the count is still 2-2 when the ump and 2 other coaches tell me it's 2-1. I accept I made a mistake and move on.

All I was politely asking for was for him to please check with the PU, who had about the same view I did, to see what he saw. The PU came up to me later in the day and said had the FU asked for his help, he would of called her out as the tag was obvious.

Hardly a fishing expedition.

But I do agree that plenty of coaches argue everything just to argue everything.

No you were clear. The conversation moved on.... Ok, lets do this, I will go through your whole thing as I would do an umpires asessment:

1. FU: Call of no tag, runner safe. (good, FU call to make)
2. Coach comes out and calmly says he believes he saw a tag that the FU couldn't see, can he please see if the other official saw it (good)
3. FU: says he wont because it is a judgment call (incorrect, this is not a judgment call)
   1. Correct procedure is that umpire assesses whether they clearly saw there wasn't a tag or that they could have been blocked/missed it/etc.
      1. If FU is 100% certain they CLEARLY saw no tag, they say "I clearly saw that she did not apply the tag" and confirm the call. There is no need to confer as FU believes they have all the information necessary. You should not go confer just for show.
      2. If FU is uncertain and believes their partner may have more information, then they should go confer. After conferring with their partner they make their final decision.
4. PU: The Plate Umpire coming up to you after the game and saying his partner got it wrong (highly inappropriate) Throwing your partner under the bus is garbage. If the Field Umpire wanted to come up and say he got it wrong fine - that is their decision to do so or not.

 

[_MIA_]

A lot of coaches burn bridges during the game using passive aggressive comments (not so softly saying "Great pitch!! Great pitch!! to their pitcher when a ball is called, etc, etc...everybody knows what I am talking about..) and then expect to get the umpires to bend over backwards for them on plays that might actually matter. Drives me nuts..pick your battles..