Does the riseball really rise???

[riseball]

The most accurate description of what a rise does is that it falls more slowly than a regular pitch. More slowly than the brain expects it to, thus the "jump" illusion.

It is physically impossible for a human to throw a softball - over or under handed - with enough speed and spin to achieve upward movement. The ball is too heavy and the seams too small.

There is a bit more to it. Yes it stays up and does not rise. However, do not discount the rapid deceleration which attributes to the jump of the riseball or late break of other pitches. The greater the spin rate the more it decelerates. If you clock pitchers with a Stalker II or other higher end radar gun you can measure the loss of velocity from release to the catchers glove.

 

[Softball scholar]

The most accurate description of what a rise does is that it falls more slowly than a regular pitch. More slowly than the brain expects it to, thus the "jump" illusion.

It is physically impossible for a human to throw a softball - over or under handed - with enough speed and spin to achieve upward movement. The ball is too heavy and the seams too small.

Argument 1:
If a pitcher releases the ball at 2 feet from the ground, and the ball hits the catchers glove at 6 feet from the ground, then mathematically, it have been proven that the ball has risen 4 feet on the pitch. So based in that calculation, you cant argue that the rise doesn't rise. Ok, yes this is oversimplification. But of course a pitcher can throw a fast ball with upward trajectory and it will also could reach its target at a higher point.

Argument 2:
But when we say does it rise, people are asking about the movement of the ball if it moves more than its natural trajectory. Again, with the correct spin (backspin,) the rise ball rises higher than a ball without back spin. So to put it in simple math terms, if a pitcher throws the ball with rise ball spin with trajectory x and speed y, it will hit the catchers glove at a higher point than a fastball thrown at the same trajectory and speed. In mathematical terms, if riseball leaves ground at 2 feet and again hits catchers glove at 5 feet off the ground, and fastball thrown at same trajectory and speed and it hits the catchers glove at 4 feet, than you can say the riseball rose one more foot due to the spin. So based on this standard of measurement, the riseball rises.

Argument 3: Can a rise ball rise higher than the straight line trajectory it was thrown on due to the magnus effect of its spin? For example: Say a pitcher releases the ball at two feet and the exact straight line trajectory to the catchers glove is 5 feet. The question is can a pitcher get enough magnus affect on the ball, to actually change the trajectory so the ball will rise above the 5 ft receiving point and for example and arrive at the catcher mitt at 6 feet off the ground? Im not a scientist or a physics teacher. But im a scholar. But from what i've read about a measureable physics calculation, the human body is probably not capable of generating enough spin and speed to create a magnus effect strong enough to make a pitch curve up higher than the original trajectory.
Someone posted earlier that the ball would have to be thrown 90+MPH and have like a 30 RPM spin rate to do this. So based on this standard of argument 3, the riseball doesn't rise.

Conclusion: Depending on how you define a rise ball, In my first two arugments, the riseball clearly rises. In argument 3, it most likely doesn't rise.

 

[corlay]

However, do not discount the rapid deceleration which attributes to the jump of the riseball or late break of other pitches. The greater the spin rate the more it decelerates.

this is an interesting thought.

are you saying that the swing/miss under riseballs can be attributed to 2 things?
1. Ball drops less than other pitches
2. Ball decelerates more quickly than other pitches

Maybe the swing misses aren't simply under the ball, but under *and* early?

Is a good riseball playing 2 tricks on the brain?
1. not arriving at the anticipated location
2. not arriving at the anticipated speed

At pitch release, our brains are making early observations to predict the path and speed of the ball.
If those 2 variables don't actually follow our predictions, we tend to swing and miss.

 

[GunnerShotgun]

Argument 1:
If a pitcher releases the ball at 2 feet from the ground, and the ball hits the catchers glove at 6 feet from the ground, then mathematically, it have been proven that the ball has risen 4 feet on the pitch. So based in that calculation, you cant argue that the rise doesn't rise. Ok, yes this is oversimplification. But of course a pitcher can throw a fast ball with upward trajectory and it will also could reach its target at a higher point.

Huh? Pitches aren't thrown on a straight line. Pitches take the path of a parabola.

Imagine your scenario above but it was a mens slow pitch pitcher. He releases the ball two feet off the ground and the catcher catches it six feet off the ground. Imagine the path of that pitch.

You are saying that's a rise ball? lol.

There is an old saying, every pitch is a drop ball. Some drop more than others. A rise ball is a drop ball. A fastball is a drop ball. A drop ball is a drop ball.

The question is can you invert the parabola so the ball is "rising". Physics tells us the answer is no.

 

[Softball scholar]

Huh? Pitches aren't thrown on a straight line. Pitches take the path of a parabola.

Imagine your scenario above but it was a mens slow pitch pitcher. He releases the ball two feet off the ground and the catcher catches it six feet off the ground. Imagine the path of that pitch.

You are saying that's a rise ball? lol.

There is an old saying, every pitch is a drop ball. Some drop more than others. A rise ball is a drop ball. A fastball is a drop ball. A drop ball is a drop ball.

The question is can you invert the parabola so the ball is "rising". Physics tells us the answer is no.

My point is that there's 3 ways of measuring this. If you look at my 3rd argument, it agrees with what you're saying. But my point is how you define it. I agree, If you go from the strict parbolic example
you gave, its impossible to throw the rise. But some people might want to compare things differently.

 

[Softball scholar]

My DD was at a college recruit camp, and she got a conversation going with a college coach who's school is located in the mountains at more than a mile high of elevation. My DD has a good riseball, and the coach said that in high altitude locations like his, you don't want to throw rise balls. He said "We throw the drop ball a lot". I understand that if you miss with the rise ball at a mile high elevation, the ball is going to travel because of less gravity and that would discourage a pitcher from throwing it. But from a scientific perspective, would less gravity at 5000 feet make the riseball jump more? Am I thinking about this wrong? What are peoples experience with pitching the risball at high altitudes?

 

[DNeeld]

There isn't less gravity at the higher elevation.....

 

[Ken B]

There isn't less gravity at the higher elevation.....

At least not enough to make a difference...
https://www.mansfieldct.org/Schools/MMS/staff/hand/lawsgravaltitude.htm

 

[Softball scholar]

There isn't less gravity at the higher elevation.....

I got science to back me up here. I pretty sure im right.

 

[Softball scholar]

Ken,

I disagree. I got a college coach saying it affects the riseball significantly. He says you wouldn't throw it. You hear about how balls fly at Coors field. They make special tennis balls that don't bounce as much for playing at altitude. How about Bob Beamon setting the long jump record for years in Mexico City as a result of the altitude. So is there any softball players from Rocky Mountain States that have experienced this?