Difference between baseball and softball swing mechanics...

[tom.guerry]

tewks-

I am relly enjoying your info, thanks.

you asked:

How do you move the hands backwards (in relation to the body) without using the arms? Push back with the arms usually leads to pull forward with the arms (and bat drag).

I like to teach and feel the throwing and swinging action together, and the back arm action is VERY similar in both up until GO.

I think of the essential swing phases as:

-rhythmic preswing activity
-inward turn/hipcock
-poisitive move/stride/handcock
-windrubberband/sit/coi
-drop and tilt/go\-swing

I do recommend somewhat independent arm action to laod the hands, realizing the dominant arm is the back arm and the shouldefrs are slaved to the arms. You do not want to "counterrotate" the shoulders too much, but you MUST counterrotate the hips.

The rhythmic preswing activity is interrupted by the dance with the pitcher, you show him/her your back pocket when you see theirs sort of thing.

The inward turn is largely a hip turn back on a fairly firm back leg, hip socket moving on top of ball of femur.

The hand load is then by INternal rotation and ABduction, analagous to keeping the hand on top when you break the hands for overhand throw.

The INternal rotation of the back arm while the back elbow is lifted prevents the urge for the shouldwer to counter-rotate. The back arm is what stretches the lead arm and shoulder as the front shoulder loads down and in so you also avoid loading the front arm/shoulder forcing weight to flow forward for supporting/puilling a loaded front shoulder.

Another impiortant crossover learning and feel from overhjand throw/windup is how lower body action synche with upper, so when the back arm internally rotates, the lead leg also internally rotates to support cocking the hips for a stable "posture" for retaining balance during the positive move and rubberbandwinind.

when the back arm lifts, the legs spread, powering the positive move supported on the back foot.

rubberband winding then starts with synched EXternal rotation of the back arm and front leg as in overhand throw.

 

[cshilt]

How do you move the hands backwards (in relation to the body) without using the arms? Push back with the arms usually leads to pull forward with the arms (and bat drag).

We posted a little about this in a previous discussion. To me, it looks something like this...

This is what I call "the hands staying put". The anatomical term of the arm action, I believe, is adduction. To the girls we instruct we want the hands to get in a good launch position.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

There are many here smarter then me, but the biggest things i see is the front shoulder roll in at load, in other words the hands need to move backwards not the shoulders, and that comes from the shoulders not being squared to the plate at load, secondly is the position of her front shoulder beginning at .49 her rear shoulder is below her front shoulder at load, there shouldd be a gap between her mask and her front shoulder, not only can it effect her vision being all scrunched up that way,,,,,, it just looks plain uncomfortable, redo the shoulders at load youll see a diff,,,,,,, I would bet Howards last boittle of Jack on it

This is what I'm referring to as excessive reverse rotation of the shoulders.

Basically, she is trying to create separation by reverse-rotating her shoulders, which is less efficient and can cause you to lose sight of the ball with the back eye.

Some of this can result from too much tee work and not enough work off of live pitching.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I really feel that "rotational guys" are more anti-linear than anything.

I'm more anti-(premature-)extension than anti-linear.

Around here, and on TV, more people sell too much extension too soon than linear hand paths.*

* I do hear hands/knob to the ball out of the mouths of dads and instructors, but I think is has more (negative) impact on dads and kids when every color commentator in the world is fixated on extension.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

We posted a little about this in a previous discussion. To me, it looks something like this...

This is what I call "the hands staying put". The anatomical term of the arm action, I believe, is adduction. To the girls we instruct we want the hands to get in a good launch position.

One of Pujols' big cues, aside from connection, is "hands back" and this is what it looks like.

 

[Bouldersdad]

This is what I'm referring to as excessive reverse rotation of the shoulders.

Basically, she is trying to create separation by reverse-rotating her shoulders, which is less efficient and can cause you to lose sight of the ball with the back eye.

Some of this can result from too much tee work and not enough work off of live pitching.

You are correct Sir, I use a Gatorade bottle taped to a broom handle that I put on a base, ( Thanks Howard for that idea by the way) and use it with tee work so movements dont become exaturated when the drills become boring, stick it behind the batter and have her go to the proper seperation ,place the bottle at that location, then her rear elbow contacts it to reinforce proper movement

Tim

 

[Bouldersdad]

Im not good at posting videos but will give the address also if it dosent work , this is the hand seperation from Bustos i mentioned earlier


Photo 13 of 16, Fastpitch

sorry wouldent let me post the clip, the addy will have to do

 

[tom.guerry]

cshilt said:

"This is what I call "the hands staying put". The anatomical term of the arm action, I believe, is adduction. "

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/sof...all-softball-swing-mechanics-7.html#post21211


Actually, this is after aBduction and is mainly the synched EXternal rotation of back arm and front leg while the back elbow stays back and up as much as possible, even though the back arm/elbow secondarily lowers (ADducts) some. The hands stay back and go "up and over".

Actively ADducting/lowering the back elbow would be "slamming the back elbow" and would force pushing hands forward.

This instead is like when you "keep the elbow up" as you lift the throwing hand by EXternal rotation in overhand throw.

Same thing pointed out here for throwing frames #40 on (elbow lift/ABduction are done, but while the elbow starts down some, the attempt is to keep it up while external rotation forces it down /some ADduction):

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/sof...ows-leading-hands-connection-2.html#post20793

"When the throwing hand comes up, the front thigh turns over"

 

[cshilt]

Actually, this is after aBduction and is mainly the synched EXternal rotation of back arm and front leg while the back elbow stays back and up as much as possible, even though the back arm/elbow secondarily lowers (ADducts) some. The hands stay back and go "up and over".

Actively ADducting/lowering the back elbow would be "slamming the back elbow" and would force pushing hands forward.

Abduction is movement away from the midline, or to abduct.

Adduction is movement toward the midline, or to add.

Am I using these terms correctly?

 

[tom.guerry]

In this case we are talking about how the upper arm/humerus is moving and aDduction means the elbow is being lowered toward the side (midline) and ABduction means the elbow is going up away from the midline. even though these are upper arm motions they are referred to as SHOULDER aduction and abduction.

now while the elbow IS coming down some in these pictures, the ADDUCTING muscle/force application is NOT the primary thing going on here and in fact the action has the "FEEL" of trying to keep the back elbow up and back while the primary action making the hands go up and over while staying back is EXternal rotation of the back arm.

at the same time the front leg starts to turn the front foot open. prior to this the back arm and front leg have been INternally rotated to tip/cock the bat while the stride foot leads with the heel.

The bat starts to untip/uncock and the front leg starts to turn the front foot open as back arm and lead leg externally rotate together.

This "feel" is easiest to learn in overhand throw, see especially BIOMECHANICBASEBALL by Jeff Hodge.