DD's opening front shoulder.

[Work=wins]

"They are are force transmitters. "
shoulders don't turn, they get turned.

YES !

 

[Shawn]

YES !

It's the old question of is it the tail wagging the dog or the dog wagging the tail?

The scapula complex transfers force/energy into the hands/arms. It's not the hands and arms transferring energy/force into the body/shoulders.

 

[Work=wins]

It's the old question of is it the tail wagging the dog or the dog wagging the tail?

The scapula complex transfers force/energy into the hands/arms. It's not the hands and arms transferring energy/force into the body/shoulders.

Sure. But rotation was what you guys were saying the shoulders job is. Thats drag. The force goes through the trunk into the shoulders through the lead arm etc. Rotational acceleration.

Force production and energy are not two in the same. Force production is the conservation of the energy used. I want conservation of energy through the shoulders. Filtered through the hands and out the bat head.

If force is applied and not filtered through the shoulders, thats an energy leak such as a pull-off.

In all honesty, the shoulders are nothing and are not even mentioned if force production and the conservation of energy is correct.AKA sequence. Just how I see it.

 

[Shawn]

I understand what your saying. I could even say that the swing is from the top down, meaning the body will organize itself to swing the bat in a top down creation. Trying to swing from the bottom up, feet, can lead to many issues in transferring force/energy to the hands/barrel. In a top down sequence the lowerbody is more connected to the upperbody mechanics because their trying to support the hands/barrel.

 

[Shawn]

"It’s about getting the 'energy from the ground' into the bat with leaking as little energy as possible up the chain. "

Joey Myers estimates that only 20% the energy comes from the ground. He has some pretty cool experiments to prove his point. I can't find them but I am sure Shawn can.

Joey talks about the spine engine being the most important element in the swing. The legs facilitate in helping the spine engine, hips/upper torso. You could say he teaches a top down approach.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Rotation in the swing should be measure by its originator. The core. The shoulders connect the lead arm to rotation. Active rotation of the shoulders is drag in disguise. Epstein’s ‘deltoid’ drill is great for drag.

No one is saying they don’t rotate. I’m just saying they rotate as needed. They are not force producers. They are are force transmitters.

The shoulders don't produce the force. TURNING the shoulders produces the force.
Angular momentum? Ever heard of g force?
The velocity vector (the direction) of a body changes when moved in a circle - there is an acceleration: centripetal acceleration. The centripetal force acting on the object has a centrifugal force of the same magnitude acting in the opposite direction.
Rotation is what causes the barrel to extend away from the body.

Bat drag happens because the barrel drags behind a linear force vector.
In his video he moves his hands linear and then rotates the bat around his hands after he moves them to his left side.
If you fire your hands first like he's promoting, you better keep your shoulder in or you will pull off the ball. You also better work on your speed to first.

 

[Work=wins]

The shoulders don't produce the force. TURNING the shoulders produces the force.
Angular momentum? Ever heard of g force?
The velocity vector (the direction) of a body changes when moved in a circle - there is an acceleration: centripetal acceleration. The centripetal force acting on the object has a centrifugal force of the same magnitude acting in the opposite direction.
Rotation is what causes the barrel to extend away from the body.

Bat drag happens because the barrel drags behind a linear force vector.
In his video he moves his hands linear and then rotates the bat around his hands after he moves them to his left side.
If you fire your hands first like he's promoting, you better keep your shoulder in or you will pull off the ball. You also better work on your speed to first.

You do not actively turn/rotate/tilt the shoulders. That’s drag. Or dump. Or Dbsf.

As said before, they get turned. By the core. Linear momentum is turned into angular momentum through the rotation of the core not the shoulders.

If one is producing force efficiently, the shoulders are nothing but a filter for energy.

Swing a bat. Don’t drag it. You don’t ‘use’ the shoulders.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

You do not actively turn/rotate/tilt the shoulders. That’s drag. Or dump. Or Dbsf.

As said before, they get turned. By the core. Linear momentum is turned into angular momentum through the rotation of the core not the shoulders.

If one is producing force efficiently, the shoulders are nothing but a filter for energy.

Swing a bat. Don’t drag it. You don’t ‘use’ the shoulders.

Semantics.
If I tell a person to turn their shoulders, I guarantee they're not gonna swing their arms around the shoulder joint. They're going to turn their collar bone transversely. But then they're not going to play silly semantic games with me.
And I'm sure the op didn't mean his dd was opening her shoulders by moving her humurous in the socket.

 

[Rolling Hard]

For the most part the shoulders are passive. Effortless power that Josh Donaldson speaks of. Does the scap fire or is it just unloaded?/ could be debated. But shoulders muscles have to be strong enough to keep the swing from collapsing and dragging the bat around. Just like forearms have to be strong enough not to dump the barrel. The glutes and the core muscles need to be strong and employed to power the swing around the spine (or the back hip socket for some). Legs assist core too. I am beginning to buy in to the balance of the swing being very important. Think of a machine that is out off balance. It is not as efficient and will break soon.

 

[Work=wins]

Semantics.
If I tell a person to turn their shoulders, I guarantee they're not gonna swing their arms around the shoulder joint. They're going to turn their collar bone transversely. But then they're not going to play silly semantic games with me.
And I'm sure the op didn't mean his dd was opening her shoulders by moving her humurous in the socket.

Ok. The reason why the front shoulder flys out is because the ‘force’ in the swing is not being transferred properly. There is a disconnect. But you say ‘rotate the shoulders’ because that’s what you see.

Some one puts up a video of someone bypassing the shoulders and releasing the barrel and you say ‘that’s terrible !’

I tried to explain to you that the shoulders are nothing in the ‘force production’ of the swing, so maybe you would understand why the guy was doing the drill in the video. It’s to activate the hands so the SHOULDERS would stop working so hard to get the barrel to the ball.

If you would swing a bat against decent velocity you would know that rotating the shoulders as a ‘move’ is slow and not adjustable.

I have said all of this previously. One more time..

The shoulder coming out can be a few things. 1) powering the swing with the shoulders instead of the middle 2) the frontside flying open 3) the player is out of sequence.

Maybe there are a few more. But those are the biggies that come to mind.