Change up advice

[halskinner]

My 2001 DD is a first year 12U pitcher. She's very small with average velocity but is a competitor who's good at hitting locations and keeping hitters off balance. She's been working on a flip change for about a year. Its been somewhat effective but the problem is that it floats so slow that the hitters see it coming. She's tried some others, shove, circle, the problem is that her hands are so small that she already holds a 12" ball pretty close to her palm so those types of pitches don't seem to provide much change of speed. Ideas?

Hi Axe,

To most people a "change up" is a pitch delivered slower than what the pitchers motions would make you believe would be coming. This is done to disrupt the hitter's timing, obviously. There are MANY ways to disrupt the hitters timing, not JUST a slow change up.

Even as a young pitcher in school, I spotted MANY things that adult pitchers did to accomplish the same thing, to disrupt the hitters timing.

What type of wind up does she use? I am going to guess that she uses a double pump windup (brings the ball down and to the rear) if so, then she already throws with three different wind ups and doesn't even know it. Using more than one windup on an individual batter at bat distroys thier timing of the pitcher's motions.

It's not just sneaky softball pitching, it's Smartsoftball.

HS/ks

It's not just sneaky softball pitching, it's SMARTSOFTBALL.

HS/ks

 

[Hillhouse]

I understand what Hal is saying with his advice but, I think this is a tricky one to do. While he is absolutely right that changing the pitchers motion can completely disrupt a hitter's timing and give them fits at the plate, it's my opinion (take it for what it's worth) that this type of tactic should only be done at the highest of levels, (and even then it can be tough to do) where a pitcher is established in their mechanics and consistent with muscle memory. One thing a pitcher needs is rhythm, and I am not sure young pitchers will get into that rhythm while they are constantly changing their motion from pitch to pitch. In fact, the opposite effect could happen. Next time you watch a game on TV (MLB or softball) watch the pitcher after they do an intentional walk.... MANY struggle with finding the plate again as the next hitter approaches. This is because they purposely took themselves out of rhythm to throw 4 balls out of the zone. They changed their mechanics and delivery. Then some struggle to get it back. So that ONE pitch that is designed to fool the hitter can really play havoc on a pitcher's mechanics in the next hitter(s).

Moreover, umpires are human beings too. Regardless of what many tell you, they can be fooled just as easy as the hitters. And if the pitcher does something out of the norm that fools the man in blue, then that entire trick can be for nothing. We'll never know how many "missed strikes" by the umpire are because he/she was also fooled by the pitch and location but, adding a delivery change to that can make it even easier to miss the call.

Again, this is just my opinion. I want my motion to be consistent and rhythmic.

Bill

 

[halskinner]

I understand what Hal is saying with his advice but, I think this is a tricky one to do. While he is absolutely right that changing the pitchers motion can completely disrupt a hitter's timing and give them fits at the plate, it's my opinion (take it for what it's worth) that this type of tactic should only be done at the highest of levels, (and even then it can be tough to do) where a pitcher is established in their mechanics and consistent with muscle memory. One thing a pitcher needs is rhythm, and I am not sure young pitchers will get into that rhythm while they are constantly changing their motion from pitch to pitch. In fact, the opposite effect could happen. Next time you watch a game on TV (MLB or softball) watch the pitcher after they do an intentional walk.... MANY struggle with finding the plate again as the next hitter approaches. This is because they purposely took themselves out of rhythm to throw 4 balls out of the zone. They changed their mechanics and delivery. Then some struggle to get it back. So that ONE pitch that is designed to fool the hitter can really play havoc on a pitcher's mechanics in the next hitter(s).

Moreover, umpires are human beings too. Regardless of what many tell you, they can be fooled just as easy as the hitters. And if the pitcher does something out of the norm that fools the man in blue, then that entire trick can be for nothing. We'll never know how many "missed strikes" by the umpire are because he/she was also fooled by the pitch and location but, adding a delivery change to that can make it even easier to miss the call.

Again, this is just my opinion. I want my motion to be consistent and rhythmic.

Bill

Bill,

Rythem and consistancy. I used to love going up against pitchers that were in a rythem and consistant. It was Very easy to time their motions and hit off of them.

You are correct about the umpires especially the younger ones. Many of them, especially the younger ones have only seen one windup in their career. I am sure in some areas of the country some of the newer umpires might not have even seen a leap and drag pitcher. Some, may have never seen a pitcher using open mechanics. This is one of the reasons I say in my book, you need to talk to the umpires and let them know that your pitcher uses more than one wind up. You may even have to give them a quick deminstration to show them what you are talking about, so they know what to expect and if they have any questions they will usually ask it then. I was asked to attend a couple of umpire training clinics in my area of the state to demonstrate to all of them just what they were going to see out of pitchers I taught or that had my book. Those were the most interesting clinics I attended.

For the league of the first group of umpires at the clinic, that same league acutally banned pitchers from using more that one wind up in a game because NOBODY was hitting the ball at any of their age levels. They went on to say they wanted those pitcher to continue practising using those tactics (windups) and to use them in tournaments against other teams not in their league.

Hitting instructors have their craft down to a fine art. I got some calls and had some conversations with a few of the best hitting instructors in Northern California. They all wanted to know the same thing; How do I teach my hitters to defind against these tactics? I told them all the same thing, you would have to teach them all to read the pitchers mind.

Over the years I have recieved several emails and a couple of phone calls from pitching or hitting instructors that were not happy with me at all. The most recent of those was a responce to my "bentfinger rise ball" post on the sticky grips thread. It was very inflamitory and insulting language was used. It only stayed on for an hour or so and was nuked. It was from a long time pitching instructor who had just got back from a national tournament. A team with one of his pitchers did badly against a pitcher using my tactics. Oh well, see ya, wouldn't wanna be ya.

HS/ks

 

[GOINGDEEP]

Now I can agree with both Hal and Bill. What works for one does not work for all, young pitchers need "rhythm" first, but then we can adjust wind ups and delivery styles, hybrid pitches.

The umpire deal? Yea, I can use a baseball reference that follows suit in fastpitch. 80% of BB umpires see overhand pitchers, 10% see sidearm, and 10% see submarine styles. From my years of experience it takes the umpires average of 2 innings to call "good" balls and strikes for the 20% pitchers who are different. You get the point. A single hybrid pitch may take the ump by surprise, but you hope it does the same for the batter for a swing and miss.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Now I can agree with both Hal and Bill. What works for one does not work for all, young pitchers need "rhythm" first, but then we can adjust wind ups and delivery styles, hybrid pitches.

The umpire deal? Yea, I can use a baseball reference that follows suit in fastpitch. 80% of BB umpires see overhand pitchers, 10% see sidearm, and 10% see submarine styles. From my years of experience it takes the umpires average of 2 innings to call "good" balls and strikes for the 20% pitchers who are different. You get the point. A single hybrid pitch may take the ump by surprise, but you hope it does the same for the batter for a swing and miss.

I agree GOING DEEP with all three. Here's the plan. I get DD citizenship in Canada first. Then I get all three of you guys commented to take in a foreign exchange student for the summer.

I send her with Mr. Bill the first summer. She is good with mobile devices, email, texting, laptops. She could help him work on the newsletters, and web site ect. She could acclimate to the tricks of travel.

Next summer she goes with Mr. Hal. She knows how to do word & excel, and could help him get out the next Book, and consult on a chapter "the tricks of travel" and work on data bases for his Biz.

Last year 2019, the summer before her senior year. You will probably be ready to put a Tennessee TB team together. Your DD will be in the NPF, and you won't know what to do with yourself. DD could double her core strength learning Horsebaback riding, and help the Mrs. around the house, by then she'll be a professional photographer and Chief. DD will have been on that "best TB team in Tennessee" come back home win her State Championship, and get ready to go Play for the Vol's, where she'll feel like its her second home. This is my summer to put the finishing touches on the project.... I'll give her the summer off... chase Mr. Bill all over the country for her weekly lessons. Get it set up where he can pass through Tennessee once a week when she is in school. By then, she will have Mr. Hals weekly webinar's winning awards for "Best Documentary". Since he lives so far out west, and 3 hrs. behind, He can call her at bed time 10pm eastern, and read her a chapter or two of his old stuff, every night, for her bedtime story, So she dreams strike outs.

This is HAL you dream the dream, with the dream TEAM !!!

 

[GOINGDEEP]

Send her on this way. My DD's not playing this fall, and even worse she has gotten a friend boy. So I need someone to run around to the ball parks with, someone to step outside and pitch.

There was a local Juco and NAIA "fall" tournament this weekend right down the road, I had been looking forward to seeing it with DD. Well, she came to me last minute and asked to go to the lake to ski one last time with her friends. WHAT...SERIOUSLY?? Rather spend time with a bunch of lame teenagers at the lake, and not a fun filled day at the ballpark with dad? It makes no sense.

 

[sutherlandfinch]

This is a gem. "desequensing" is a term I hadn't heard before to describe it but it is appropriate. I'm a bit suprised that noone has jumped on this to expand. A great contribution to end the syndrome of slow arm change ups. Nice

 

[Perfect Circle]

Seen a wickedest backflip CU ever yesterday... DD was catching, and she liked it so much, It hit her right in the mask on a third strike. She was still able to make the throw to 1st...lol Seen a girl throw some nice smooth K's with IR first time seeing it in the "O"

 

[Jojo]

Mine was a quick pitcher, and she could throw 2 different spinning off-speed pitches and a change along with breaking heat. She would throw as many off-speed as she did heat to each batter.

Her hitters never have that much time to get ready in the box, and since there was so much speed difference in between pitches, they never could get comfortable. We learned early on about not letting hitters get comfortable.

I'll admit quick pitching isn't for every pitcher, some really need time to think, relax, adjust, before throwing, but for my DD, it really was a bonus.