CALLING the PITCHES - the sequence

[Greenmonsters]

My point is, a setup pitch and the "out" pitch are a pair, and inseparable (so to speak).

Yes and no. If they become inseparable, they are predictable, which is what we're trying to avoid. For example, how many times do you see back-to-back change ups? IME, 99% of the time a hitter doesn't worry about a change up being the next pitch after seeing a change up. I've tried to teach my catchers that even if a P doesn't have an effective change or can't even throw it ocasionally for a strike, find a spot early in the game where you can call it back to back because it doesn't allow the hitter to rule it out as a possible pitch she could see in any count or situation and that makes her speed pitches just a little bit speedier, which may make the difference between a successful and unsuccessful at bat. There's many ways to play the pitch calling game - one of my favorites behind the plate was to tell the batter what pitch was coming because I didn't like the pitcher because he was dating my ex. Most hitters didn't believe it and would turn around afterwards shocked. Blame any deviation on the pitcher crossing you up because you were at odds. Do it 2 or 3 times in a row and then the hiter starts thinking more about that rather than actually hitting the ball. And then when you really needed an out, you were in their head and had a big advantage.

 

[SBFAMILY]

I'm sure many of you use a chart to chart what a pitcher is throwing . Not just that she throws a strike on the first pitch, but many are very predictable. They have a pattern. Tonight I have scouted the pitcher we face. She has verballed to a D1 and likes to over power you with a FB in the 60's. She almost always throws a FB outside corner for a strike, then a rise ball for you to chase. For that reason I mix it up calling pitches. Many don't. Yes I like calling back to back Change ups , just for the fact they never think they are going to get it again! It really plays havic with the power hitters. In regards to my post on slappers. It was a cut and paste from a very good pitching instructor from his forum. I just don't like to get someone else involved with a name, unless I have his permission. Since he is on this site, he can respond if he wishes.

 

[Steve Huff]

Posted by curiousgeorge - SB, I too would like to know the author of this. Based on the common sense approach I have my suspicions about who it is but, I don't recall having read it before. It makes a lot of sense to not pitch to where someone is trying to hit the ball, just as it would make sense to not pitch a riseball (for example) to someone who is an excellent riseball hitter.

With that said, I agree with the others that there are far too many variables to make an accurate reply. However, the post SBFamily made is a very general strategy which makes a lot of sense. CG
I too would like SB to post the author. 95% of the coaches are pitching backwards to slappers. That includes many college coaches.

curiousgeorge, SBFAMILY, CoachFP, Rick Balswick, Boardmember, I would like to ask what can be done to improve the parameters of the scenario?

In truth, I mentioned Bill Hillhouse could solve the mystery of what the four pitch count was about in 2 seconds. My intent is as follows. If you have two strikes on a batter, what pitch do you throw next? How many pitchers use a "set-up" pitch. And if they do, is it intended to compliment or actually set up the best "out" pitch, or 4th pitch in the sequence? I see it in travel ball, I see it in college, and I see it in International play, where two scenarios evolve:

First - no set up pitch is used, and the pitcher comes right at the batter.
Second - a pitch is wasted going 1-2, but that 3rd pitch has no connection to the pitch used to put-away the batter.

My point is, a setup pitch and the "out" pitch are a pair, and inseparable (so to speak).

As was quoted in the movie Grease: "The rules are that there are no rules". Trying to sequence pitching on a message board is a futile exercise. The game and players dictate what you do. What if your pitcher can't throw the pitch on a given day. The umpire isn't calling a particular pitch etc. etc. This discussion has run its course in my opinion.

curiousgeorge, SBFAMILY, CoachFP, Rick Balswick, Boardmember, I would like to ask what can be done to improve the parameters of the scenario?

In truth, I mentioned Bill Hillhouse could solve the mystery of what the four pitch count was about in 2 seconds. My original intent was as follows: If you have 2 strikes on a batter, what pitch do you throw next? How many pitchers use a "set-up" pitch. And if they do, is it intended to compliment or actually set up the best "out" pitch, or 4th pitch in the sequence? I see it in travel ball, I see it in college, and I see it in International play, where two scenarios evolve:

First - no set up pitch is used, and the pitcher comes right at the batter.
Second - a pitch is wasted going 1-2, but that 3rd pitch has no connection to the pitch used to put-away the batter.

My point is, a setup pitch and the "out" pitch are a pair, and inseparable (so to speak). When you get to an 0-2 count, you have to think "two pitches" not one. "I am going to waste a pitch here, to set up an out pitch." But if the pitcher doesn't connect the two pitches together, then they truly just wasted a pitch!

Betina is one of my pitching students. She is 30 years old and not a high schooler. But I asked her to do this. And she happened to be the best in the class I held on this specific issue and other pitch selection issues, including the excellent post by SB on pitching to slappers. Most had no clue or had ever been told by the coaches who came there about pitch selection or slappers. So she impressed me. And I think if you look at the email sequences she sent me, you can see she connected the pitches.

I think the message is relevant, but I think I personally may be struggling in getting my message across or doing a poor job of setting it up. I would love input.

Steve, not sure that Hillhouse would give you what a four pitch count was. I don't think he pitches in patterns nor would it be smart to do so.

No, no, no! You are missing something vital here and I have mentioned it several times. First, if there was "A PATTERN", I would just post it! There are dozens of options. You have seen a few here. Secondly, IN NO WAY, do I believe in pitching in patters. Where does that notion come from. I have asked individuals to post multiple examples, sequences. There is nothing "PATTERN" here.

If you are in a ballgame. Bottom of the 7th inning, no outs. One to one game. No wind! You have a pinch hitter you have never seen before. Her swing and stance look straight up, normal. How do you pitch to her? There are perhaps 30 options based on your strengths; control, speed, movement, variety of pitches, etc. And another pitcher may have fewer or more sequence options.

By seeing more experienced people who have called pitches, or pitched to slappers, they can learn how to put sequences together and maybe have an, ah-ha moment. Are there people here who can learn from this thread? I think so. We have already had a major discussion on slappers, though I hoped that wouldn't be for a few days, someone was on the ball. And some member here has his act together! Sequences commonly thrown to slappers is one of my great pet-peeves as you already know.

Posted by Greenmonsters -
Yes and no. If they become inseparable, they are predictable, which is what we're trying to avoid. For example, how many times do you see back-to-back change ups? IME, 99% of the time a hitter doesn't worry about a change up being the next pitch after seeing a change up. I've tried to teach my catchers that even if a P doesn't have an effective change or can't even throw it ocasionally for a strike, find a spot early in the game where you can call it back to back because it doesn't allow the hitter to rule it out as a possible pitch she could see in any count or situation and that makes her speed pitches just a little bit speedier, which may make the difference between a successful and unsuccessful at bat. There's many ways to play the pitch calling game - one of my favorites behind the plate was to tell the batter what pitch was coming because I didn't like the pitcher because he was dating my ex. Most hitters didn't believe it and would turn around afterwards shocked. Blame any deviation on the pitcher crossing you up because you were at odds. Do it 2 or 3 times in a row and then the hiter starts thinking more about that rather than actually hitting the ball. And then when you really needed an out, you were in their head and had a big advantage.

Greenmonsters, if you called for a change-up for the 3rd pitch, and had the intent to throw another changeup, then aren't they conceived together? If you called a low outside drop-ball, with the intent of calling a curve-ball the next pitch, they are conceived together. In Betina's slapper graph above, she threw 2 change-ups in a row. However, not exactly the same scenario as you describe. She used the 2nd change-up to do THREE things:
1) slow the bat down even more
2) get the batter thinking or leaning outside even more
3) set up the change of pitch speed from slow to fast in a new location, inside. She also could have thrown a rise-ball by that time IMHO.

If you go back and look at Betina's second graph, she got the hitter essentially leaning after 3 different pitches outside. Once she established a tendency, she came up and in on the 4th pitch. I think she posted a curve-ball outside as the 3rd pitch, lean, lean more, lean further, up and in! That 3rd pitch and the rise-ball were conceived together. And the 3rd pitch was a waste pitch that encouraged the batter to look out there, before she busted him up and in.

If you look at Betina's 10 pitch sequences, there is no pattern. The 3rd and 4th pitches vary. There is no predictability. My point is, if you are going to get a batter out with a certain pitch, enhance your chances with the pitch before, the setup pitch. In this scenario, we are wasting a 3rd pitch, or trying to get them to chase, and then changing as many variables as possible between that 3rd pitch, and the "out" pitch; location up/down, in/out, fast/slow, and movement.

The setup or "waste" pitch is designed to enhance or magnify the effect of the fourth, or out pitch. Now it may take you 5 pitches to get the job done. But for purposes here we don't need five pitches. It just makes it a little more difficult for me and convoluted visually.

 

[PEPPERS]

My train of thought has been to keep the ball high and tight with a FB, RB and screw rise off the plate. I felt that throwing the ball low with a drop and keeping the ball on the outside of the plate played into the batter’s hand trying to hit the ball on the ground to the left side of the infield. My daughter varies her delivery motion to try and throw of the timing of the slapper, sometimes she starts forward from her pause and sometimes she rocks back, although she has not done this in a while she has used a sling shot motion, it would turn into a argument between the opposing coach and the ump when she used it so daughter got tired of the Hassel. She has been fairly successful using this and I came up with this plan of attack, which to me was common sense, although what made sense to me I discovered they are better alternatives.

Last week she faced a good slapper in TB, supper fast. The games I watched her play she did not make an out until our game. Against daughter a number of foul backs, fly to second, strikeout and fly to the pitcher in her 3 at bats.

Listening to the Alabama game on the radio, it was mentioned new college rule you did not have to make an attempt to get out of the way of a ball for a hit batsman, the announcer advised slappers were diving into pitches and getting hit and get on base.

Does this change in college the inside pitches to slappers?

 

[Steve Huff]

My train of thought has been to keep the ball high and tight with a FB, RB and screw rise off the plate. I felt that throwing the ball low with a drop and keeping the ball on the outside of the plate played into the batter’s hand trying to hit the ball on the ground to the left side of the infield. My daughter varies her delivery motion to try and throw of the timing of the slapper, sometimes she starts forward from her pause and sometimes she rocks back, although she has not done this in a while she has used a sling shot motion, it would turn into a argument between the opposing coach and the ump when she used it so daughter got tired of the Hassel. She has been fairly successful using this and I came up with this plan of attack, which to me was common sense, although what made sense to me I discovered they are better alternatives.

Last week she faced a good slapper in TB, supper fast. The games I watched her play she did not make an out until our game. Against daughter a number of foul backs, fly to second, strikeout and fly to the pitcher in her 3 at bats.

Listening to the Alabama game on the radio, it was mentioned new college rule you did not have to make an attempt to get out of the way of a ball for a hit batsman, the announcer advised slappers were diving into pitches and getting hit and get on base.

Does this change in college the inside pitches to slappers?

I have an opinion, but I am sure it could be amended. I think the rule reflects reality. How do you attempt to get out of the way of a 70mph pitch when it takes 0.4-0.5 seconds to react to what your eyes see? Do you react AFTER you have been hit? It would still stand that in the umpires discretion, a player can not lean or dive into a pitch. A don't think pitching off the plate inside the batters box would be advisable. But that 6" off the plate should still be the pitcher's. For lefties against slappers, I think they might want to pitch to the strike zone on the inside corner.

Posted by SBFAMILY - Fastpitch Softball Pitching Instruction Steve have you seen this or used it. We call pitches based on the batter. As our hitting coach, it is my job to watch the hitter and try to determine what she can or can't hit and where the ball may go. In high school I'm getting pretty good at it. We throw few FB's.

I looked at this website briefly. I have a similar chart I hand out in my clinics to pitchers and catchers. This is really good! I mentioned some time back about giving this to my college pitchers, and they had never seen anything about any of this! How is that possible?

 

[PEPPERS]

I have an opinion, but I am sure it could be amended. I think the rule reflects reality. How do you attempt to get out of the way of a 70mph pitch when it takes 0.4-0.5 seconds to react to what your eyes see? Do you react AFTER you have been hit? It would still stand that in the umpires discretion, a player can not lean or dive into a pitch. A don't think pitching off the plate inside the batters box would be advisable. But that 6" off the plate should still be the pitcher's. For lefties against slappers, I think they might want to pitch to the strike zone on the inside corner.

I am sure I could not get out of the way myself, but 70 MPH I would sure try.

 

[curiousgeorge]

I'm sure many of you use a chart to chart what a pitcher is throwing . Not just that she throws a strike on the first pitch, but many are very predictable. They have a pattern. Tonight I have scouted the pitcher we face. She has verballed to a D1 and likes to over power you with a FB in the 60's. She almost always throws a FB outside corner for a strike, then a rise ball for you to chase. For that reason I mix it up calling pitches. Many don't. Yes I like calling back to back Change ups , just for the fact they never think they are going to get it again! It really plays havic with the power hitters. In regards to my post on slappers. It was a cut and paste from a very good pitching instructor from his forum. I just don't like to get someone else involved with a name, unless I have his permission. Since he is on this site, he can respond if he wishes.

That post you are referencing is Hillhouse. It's funny how his name is referenced in nearly every thread, videos and pictures of him are being used constantly but there was concern about using his name in reference to something he wrote personally. I would be more concerned about using his photos/videos etc. without permission than to quote something he wrote in a newsletter but that's just me. He and I have spoke about this website often and I really don't think he cares all that much about being quoted or that he's mentioned a lot. But I KNOW he hates being misquoted and misrepresented, which seems to happen to him a lot on other forums.

So there you go Steve Huff, the mystery is solved. I'm going to email him now and tell him I "outed him" and I'm sure his response will be "Huh? What the hell are you talking about?"

CG

 

[Greenmonsters]

That post you are referencing is Hillhouse. It's funny how his name is referenced in nearly every thread, videos and pictures of him are being used constantly but there was concern about using his name in reference to something he wrote personally. I would be more concerned about using his photos/videos etc. without permission than to quote something he wrote in a newsletter but that's just me. He and I have spoke about this website often and I really don't think he cares all that much about being quoted or that he's mentioned a lot. But I KNOW he hates being misquoted and misrepresented, which seems to happen to him a lot on other forums.

So there you go Steve Huff, the mystery is solved. I'm going to email him now and tell him I "outed him" and I'm sure his response will be "Huh? What the hell are you talking about?"

CG

Ask him what the most change ups he's ever thrown in a row!

 

[Mrek]

Your DD or pitcher, or you, are the best pitcher against the best hitter. How are you going to get them out?

My purpose is to get some thinking going about how to call pitch sequences.
Well I thought we would try this. The first pitch is an automatic strike, and you should use 4 pitches to get the batter out. You are putting the pitch where you want! The objective is to choose pitches that will allow an 0-2 count, and then use 2 more pitches to put the batter away. It doesn’t matter if it is a “K” or a pop-up. Choose a wise sequence that we keep the batter off-balance, or make you successful. You offer the strategy, and I will post your graph since you won't be able to do so in most cases.

These are the graphics to choose from. The names listed here are the primary pitch that that pitcher throws, and you chose.

RH batter
Slapper - focus on the best approach against a slapper who bunts and slaps
Hillhouse - 3 pitches (rise-ball, peel-drop, change-up)

Rules:
1) You can use 5 pitches preferably only 4. Four would be ideal?
2) At least the first pitch must be a strike - that pitch is a swing and a miss or foul ball (a)
3) On no pitch will the ball be considered put in play for a hit
4) The objective is to get a player out setting them up for the putout

(a) If the first pitch were taken for a strike, that could change the pitch sequence and strategy. It makes it too complex so we will assume the first pitch is a swing and miss or foul ball.

I would really like to see DD's and your team players, pitchers and catchers get involved.If you have a catcher or pitcher that wants to offer her sequence, then just give her first name and age along with the sequence information. Your DD, catcher, or pitcher can chose which pitch she throws off of, or choose the slapper.

I can't make one for a girl who throws 8 pitches at 3 speeds, so don't ask for more. We are making reasonable assumptions. I will not be able to post in other threads, so some coaches will get a break

The pitches on most graphics are FB-fastball, CH-changeup, DP-dropball RS-riseball, SC-screwball, CU-curveball (The curveball willl serve for the drop-curve if you want to throw it)
The pitch count is displayed in the ball icon. The drop ball has an arrow pointed down, the riseball - up for example. If you are left handed, and the pitch icons change for you, please make note of that by mentioning it in your thread. I will post your graphic with your name and any text you provided in a new post.

Here is a simple graphic as a sample. And no this isn't a good one, I just don't want to share ideas. The fourth pitch is either a swing and miss, results in a weak out, or a caught foul tip..

If you say riseball up and in, it will be posted as an ideal pitch, up and in!

We can learn from each other, debate once the graphic is posted, and learn. Debate is welcome, but I would prefer some contribution rather than constant negativity.

It might be a good idea to delete your original post after your graphic is posted.

View attachment 1814

Not sure about the graphic but...

SC - (in 0-1)
RS - (up and in 0-2)
SC - (in on hands 1-2)
CH - (away, put it in the book)

 

[BoardMember]

Not sure about the graphic but...

SC - (in 0-1)
RS - (up and in 0-2)
SC - (in on hands 1-2)
CH - (away, put it in the book)

And hence the understanding that EVERY pitch before the "out" pitch is a set up pitch........