barrel/hand pivot point, a.k.a TTB

[cnardone]

The question I have is this, how do the hands/wrists move independently of the arms? The hands squeeze the bat. The wrists flex, deviate, and twist. If there are 2 hands on the bat and the hitter creates a shearing action, the wrists will articulate but the force is supplied by the arm and shoulder movements. If the wrists and hands are loose, there is slack in the linkage and the force isn't efficiently transferred.

I agree with everything there. I am replying with what I personally think the disconnect for some people.

You're saying the Active hands = "hands / wrists articulate but the force is supplied by the arm and shoulder movements." The hands and wrists are actively keeping all the angles

Where others are thinking Active = "hands / wrist assisting the drive backward via supination (???) in conjunction with the arm and shoulder".

Maybe I am wrong, perhaps it is just a disagreement on how....violent vs controlled the elbow slotting is. No one else has commented in our discussion so perhaps I am the only one whose idea of active vs passive is different than yours.

cmn

 

[fanboi22]

I agree with everything there. I am replying with what I personally think the disconnect for some people.

You're saying the Active hands = "hands / wrists articulate but the force is supplied by the arm and shoulder movements." The hands and wrists are actively keeping all the angles

Where others are thinking Active = "hands / wrist assisting the drive backward via supination (???) in conjunction with the arm and shoulder".

Maybe I am wrong, perhaps it is just a disagreement on how....violent vs controlled the elbow slotting is. No one else has commented in our discussion so perhaps I am the only one whose idea of active vs passive is different than yours.

cmn

For me, i am not initially worried what muscle does what. If i look at the angles of the barrel and handle vs hands forearms and shoulders, that is what i am trying to decipher. I have questioned that supination relative to the forearm doesn't happen until around halfway thru the swing. So to me there may be a tip and rip, but it isn't pronation or supination. If you watch the elbow and how it moves the wrists hold onto the handle with the same angles. I know this is generally speaking, like when i look at Yelich, his wrists are more deviated than some (not sure if that is the correct terminology), but he keeps that same relative position.

I think the elbow slotting is a product of the torso/core turning. and how close to or far away from the body the slot is dictated by the location of the pitch, in or out. Tilt takes care of high or low.

I think that definitions of words get in the way alot on this board. I like to describe what i see and feel.

People talk about overbaking things, but that is when you take demos from Pujols and TM literally. I have not known what things have been isolation vs what should actually be happening. Until now after alot of reading and trying, having to figure it out by failure, overcoaching, and overbaking.

There HAS to be a force on the handle. But if you look, the wrist, by definition is not supinating. It is mostly locked relative to forearm. I believe that they supination and articulate later in the swing at whip. I agree the faster you can get to speed the better, but i think the barrel is and can only go as fast as the torso is originally pulling it. So hand speed is a function of the torso rotational speed.

Is this ideal? i dont know, however all the talk about casting, dropping, pushing etc, If you turn torso and apply force to hands arms to keep them relatively stationary, the swing looks better IMO.

 

[rdbass]

 

[fanboi22]

What is the movement that shows you he is adjusting?

 

[Shawn]

I'm not so sure the barrel is not accelerated during this time. It seems to me that the the barrel has to be accelerated greatly during this time.

I'm not so sure how much to trust this but I compare my swing video to his and it makes sense. View attachment 17673

He gets 83 mph from ~20 hand speed. I get like ~70 from 22. And my time to contact is much longer. (Like .18 or .19). Correa has one of the most "whippy" swings. Which is apparent as His left hand slows considerably but his right hand keeps going.



I would guess a guy like Stanton would have much higher hand speed for maybe a few MPH gain in batspeed compared to correa.

This video about pitching shows how brush contact works. I think in the swing the "Brush" is caused by hip extension which has the effect of stopping/slowing the bottom hand. There is also another lever in the swing to think about(the bat). So the bottom hand slowing in the swing has the same effect as the upper arm slowing in the pitch.

The explanation starts around 5:00. It's japanese but there is some good stuff and subtitles at important parts.

Correa’s swing is just one way to swing a bat. He really isn’t having a HOF career. He is just an average hitter. Mankin’s study concluded that the best hitters didn’t generate bat speed out front. He said the best hitters used THT and BHT. Creating a transfer of torque over the entire arc. Correa has a long hand path out front, compared to a short hand path that comes from TTB. A short hand path as Mankin describes.

 

[fanboi22]

Correa’s swing is just one way to swing a bat. He really isn’t having a HOF career. He is just an average hitter. Mankin’s study concluded that the best hitters didn’t generate bat speed out front. He said the best hitters used THT and BHT. Creating a transfer of torque over the entire arc. Correa has a long hand path out front, compared to a short hand path that comes from TTB. A short hand path as Mankin describes.

Hey Shawn, could you share that study or is it proprietary?

 

[Shawn]

Hey Shawn, could you share that study or is it proprietary?

Mankin was the first to explain TTB. You could sum it up as TTB deep, creating early batspeed., with a short hand path. Shorter hand path because of creating the oar lock effect and TTB. In Mankin’s research you TTB deep and forward. Correa is creating batspeed out front, long hand path. Correa is a good example of creating batspeed out front, bat lag position forward and creating whip out front.

We can talk about Mankin all day and all
his material.

 

[fanboi22]

Mankin was the first to explain TTB. You could sum it up as TTB deep, creating early batspeed., with a short hand path. Shorter hand path because of creating the oar lock effect and TTB. In Mankin’s research you TTB deep and forward. Correa is creating batspeed out front, long hand path. Correa is a good example of creating batspeed out front, bat lag position forward and creating whip out front.

We can talk about Mankin all day and all
his material.

Ok thanks. You had just mentioned that ‘Mankins study concluded’. I was just looking for the data set that showed out front wasnt ideal. I like looking at the numbers. Thanks.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

I'm not so sure the barrel is not accelerated during this time. It seems to me that the the barrel has to be accelerated greatly during this time.

I'm not so sure how much to trust this but I compare my swing video to his and it makes sense. View attachment 17673

He gets 83 mph from ~20 hand speed. I get like ~70 from 22. And my time to contact is much longer. (Like .18 or .19). Correa has one of the most "whippy" swings. Which is apparent as His left hand slows considerably but his right hand keeps going.



I would guess a guy like Stanton would have much higher hand speed for maybe a few MPH gain in batspeed compared to correa.

This video about pitching shows how brush contact works. I think in the swing the "Brush" is caused by hip extension which has the effect of stopping/slowing the bottom hand. There is also another lever in the swing to think about(the bat). So the bottom hand slowing in the swing has the same effect as the upper arm slowing in the pitch.

The explanation starts around 5:00. It's japanese but there is some good stuff and subtitles at important parts.

The math says his rate of acceleration is slowing. He's still applying force and accelerating the barrel, just not as much.
His average acceleration measured over the entire swing is 82.3 mph in .17 seconds for an acceleration rate of 482mph/sec.
From the 90° elbow bend to contact his speed changes 8% or 6.1 mph in .08 seconds for an acceleration rate of 76.25 mph/sec.
He's losing his ability to apply force efficiently.



The brush is aka internal rotation. He demonstrates the bend in the elbow as being crucial..... it allows the application of leverage, rotation, torque.
IR /wrist pronation is the fastest motion the human body can achieve.
It happens at the brush because of the direction the ball is thrown. The brush doesn't cause it.
Overhand throwing (baseball and football) also uses IR and there's no thigh to brush. Thumb turns down to pronate in overhand throw.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Mankin was the first to explain TTB. You could sum it up as TTB deep, creating early batspeed., with a short hand path. Shorter hand path because of creating the oar lock effect and TTB. In Mankin’s research you TTB deep and forward. Correa is creating batspeed out front, long hand path. Correa is a good example of creating batspeed out front, bat lag position forward and creating whip out front.

We can talk about Mankin all day and all
his material.

Mankin THT= early batspeed
BHT = late bat speed?