looking for any thoughts on getting better with spin. using spin devices or drills specific to peel drop and curve. hasn't gotten consistent and with the winter coming up great time to get some work in. i feel the inconsistency is from being to tense. i also know the fingers are very important. thanks
achieving better spin
- Thread starter durwood
- Start date
Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch
Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.
- Jul 26, 2010
- 3,554
- 0
Best advice I can give is to have the pitcher carry a softball all the time. Get her in the habit of spinning the ball a few inches in the air and catching it on the seams and repeating. By making it a game to catch it on the same seams she uses to throw it, she can ensure that the spin is correct. Even by having beginning pitchers practice their corkscrew fastball spin, you set them up for success later on. Additionally, the old spin and release into the glove works really well. What you're trying to do is increase finger and wrist snap strength while creating muscle memory. Make sure she understands that the spin has to be a "snap" for each of these pitches, she should actually hear her fingers snapping into her hand at release when doing this.
There is a device called a spin-rite that can be used to build finger strength, but IMO because the axis is locked, it can also build bad habits. For instance, the athlete might actually be pulling her fingers at an angle across the axis, but because there is a bolt through the thing, it will "look" like she's doing it right. She'll pitch the same way she practices, so you have to be careful that she's practicing the spin on the correct axis. IMO a tool like this is better suited to building strength once the pitch is already mastered.
-W
There is a device called a spin-rite that can be used to build finger strength, but IMO because the axis is locked, it can also build bad habits. For instance, the athlete might actually be pulling her fingers at an angle across the axis, but because there is a bolt through the thing, it will "look" like she's doing it right. She'll pitch the same way she practices, so you have to be careful that she's practicing the spin on the correct axis. IMO a tool like this is better suited to building strength once the pitch is already mastered.
-W
- Dec 30, 2009
- 49
- 0
Starsnuffer,
You mention in the above post " beginners practicing corkscrew spin". I possibly spend more time helping students unlearn "corkscrew" spin than I do any other one thing I teach. To a softball pitcher, the corkscrew spin habit is like having a "PLAGUE". The " spinner" and a lined ball are my main weapons in fighting this disease. You also mention "hear her fingers snapping into her hand" as though it is primarily an effort move. I would submit to you that finger tip speed and snap is primarily caused by "letting it happen" from whip etc. ( I'm sorry this sounds so obnoxious; but "forced" action and "corkscrew" spin is generally not a path to maximizing talent- IMO.)
You mention in the above post " beginners practicing corkscrew spin". I possibly spend more time helping students unlearn "corkscrew" spin than I do any other one thing I teach. To a softball pitcher, the corkscrew spin habit is like having a "PLAGUE". The " spinner" and a lined ball are my main weapons in fighting this disease. You also mention "hear her fingers snapping into her hand" as though it is primarily an effort move. I would submit to you that finger tip speed and snap is primarily caused by "letting it happen" from whip etc. ( I'm sorry this sounds so obnoxious; but "forced" action and "corkscrew" spin is generally not a path to maximizing talent- IMO.)
- Jul 26, 2010
- 3,554
- 0
OMR,
Could you elaborate a bit on the reasoning here? I guess I'm a lot like a softball player in this respect, if you just tell me to do something, it's never going to sink in. If you tell me why and what you're trying to accomplish, it will make all the difference in the world.
I can tell you why I teach corkscrew for fastballs, but this thread was started with someone asking how to practice spinning the ball so forgive me for being off topic. I teach corkscrew for several reasons. One, it initiates the pitcher into the importance of learning how to spin the ball. The corkscrew motion on a fastball is very similar to the spin motion for the rise, only at a 90 degree angle variance. Two, the fastball isn't used much in games after about 15yo or so, yet it is the pitch practiced the most. The corkscrew motion of flipping the wrist over puts tension on the shoulder and upper arm muscles that keep the humorous inside the shoulder joint on a female. An IR or wrist flip fastball will actually cause the upper arm to leave the socket briefly. Most of these girls will never play D1 ball, but most of them are likely to be mothers someday. I'd like for them to be able to pick up their kids when they're 25, much less still be able to pick up a softball. Yes, an IR or wrist flip creates slightly more speed on snap, but to what gain? They're not throwing it in a game. Third, it seemed to work out great for Cat Osterman and a plethora of college pitchers that followed her development style (not saying she created it by any means).
I've never had a problem teaching a corkscrew fastball pitcher how to throw a rise with a great 4 seam spin. I have hug problems teaching a girl who comes in with a wrist-flip fastball because they never developed a spin of any kind, other then maybe a peel drop which uses very different mechanics. The wrist-flippers are the ones that have to fight the dreaded corkscrew rise habits
All that said, I've still a lot to learn and am by no means set in my ways, so please, teach me otherwise, I'm always looking for better ways to do things and learn from others experiences.
BTW, I advocate the use of the spinner or taped/lined balls as well. These give the pitcher instant feedback and they know right away if their spin is on target or not.
-W
Could you elaborate a bit on the reasoning here? I guess I'm a lot like a softball player in this respect, if you just tell me to do something, it's never going to sink in. If you tell me why and what you're trying to accomplish, it will make all the difference in the world.
I can tell you why I teach corkscrew for fastballs, but this thread was started with someone asking how to practice spinning the ball so forgive me for being off topic. I teach corkscrew for several reasons. One, it initiates the pitcher into the importance of learning how to spin the ball. The corkscrew motion on a fastball is very similar to the spin motion for the rise, only at a 90 degree angle variance. Two, the fastball isn't used much in games after about 15yo or so, yet it is the pitch practiced the most. The corkscrew motion of flipping the wrist over puts tension on the shoulder and upper arm muscles that keep the humorous inside the shoulder joint on a female. An IR or wrist flip fastball will actually cause the upper arm to leave the socket briefly. Most of these girls will never play D1 ball, but most of them are likely to be mothers someday. I'd like for them to be able to pick up their kids when they're 25, much less still be able to pick up a softball. Yes, an IR or wrist flip creates slightly more speed on snap, but to what gain? They're not throwing it in a game. Third, it seemed to work out great for Cat Osterman and a plethora of college pitchers that followed her development style (not saying she created it by any means).
I've never had a problem teaching a corkscrew fastball pitcher how to throw a rise with a great 4 seam spin. I have hug problems teaching a girl who comes in with a wrist-flip fastball because they never developed a spin of any kind, other then maybe a peel drop which uses very different mechanics. The wrist-flippers are the ones that have to fight the dreaded corkscrew rise habits
All that said, I've still a lot to learn and am by no means set in my ways, so please, teach me otherwise, I'm always looking for better ways to do things and learn from others experiences.
BTW, I advocate the use of the spinner or taped/lined balls as well. These give the pitcher instant feedback and they know right away if their spin is on target or not.
-W
The Tight Ball Spinner is the ball on the dowel rod. The Spin Right Spinner is the plastic disc. I just wanted to get the right terms on the posts, if people are looking for the products.
- Dec 30, 2009
- 49
- 0
Starsnuffer- To begin, at least we agree that the fastball becomes increasingly ineffective as pitchers get older and secondly, I would need to plead ignorance to an IR or wrist flip fastball causing the upper arm to leave the socket briefly and causes more speed on snap; (???). Your belief that corkscrew spin is foundational to the rise and healthy for the shoulder is outside of my hallway of thought and seems to take us further away from the original request for help in learning how to spin the ball.
Not to be disrespectful in any way, but do you have documentation that the IR release causes shoulder injury? It seems to me to be the natural pitching motion, never in my years of teaching have any of my kids developed shoulder problems. I can’t even imagine teaching a corkscrew on purpose. I have however spent many hours trying to undo it.
Try using a baseball at first for the flips and spins, just while she is standing. After she is used to that, use an 11 inch ball and progress to the 12 inch softball.
Her finger nails must be on top of the seams, and the spin comes from pulling the middle finger off the ball. It creates friction.
Her finger nails must be on top of the seams, and the spin comes from pulling the middle finger off the ball. It creates friction.
Here is a link I was looking for - the Zip Ball. Softball Excellence
- Jul 26, 2010
- 3,554
- 0
I'm looking for specific documentation. Here are links to several studies that show the upper arm and shoulder being the parts of the body that take the most damage during pitching Data-Based Interval Throwing Programs for Collegiate Softball Players Windmill Softball Pitching. Apply some basic kiniseology and understanding of female anatomy (specifically how the lower arm protrudes outwards of the body compared to a male). Here you can see how using a corkscrew or "opening a doorknob" spin of the hand/forarm at release causes the elbow to move closer inline with the body resulting in linear stress of the upper arm and shoulder inline with the body. Repeat the same motion (remembering to use a female arm, not your own if you are male, it's different) with the arm in it's "natural" outward angle during a wrist flip or an exaggerated elbow-out position during a thumb down/pink up rotation and you can observe how this "pulls" the upper arm outward from the shoulder and stresses the join rather then the muscles.
Never am I saying here that using a a fastball other then the doorknob/corkscrew is bad. Actually I think I've stated that for purposes of speed, the corkscrew is inferior. What I am stating, is that because we use the fastball release to teach basic mechanics and work on all other aspects of the pitch (leg drive, body positioning, ect) we repeat the fastball motion over and over more so then any other pitching motion. It would make sense that since our objective here is clearly not to have "the bestest fastball" that we would use a motion that is least harmful to the athlete.
In a world where any joe schmoe who had a daughter that learned to pitch thinks they are "a pitching coach", despite no formal kiniseology or sports medicine training or degree, we all have to be careful about what, exactly, our kids are being taught to do over and over and over again. Heck, there's one very reputable pitching coach in my area that teaches her students to drive their pivot foot into the back of their lower leg as a follow-through to the toe drag. They do this over and over and over again. Every single one of her students above the age of 17 wears a knee brace on their stride leg. Coincidence? If you just sit there and rub your thumb and forfinger together long enough, you will get a blister on your finger. Think about what happens to girls that kick themselves over and over behind their knee. Think of what happens if you forcibly stress the shoulder over and over again.
Sometimes, the most effective motion is not the best motion to practice in repetition. Maintaining a pitchers health so that they can remain uninjured and get the necessary experience they need to become great is more important then 2 extra mph on their fastball, IMO.
I really question these claims of spending hours and hours to "undo" a corkscrew fastball. If the pitcher has been taught other pitches, all which require a different release and a different spin, what makes the fastball any different. I make sure all my pitchers know how to pitch a wrist-flip fastball, and this does not take a very long time to do. I do this because I know, at some point, they're going to go to a camp or be coached by a coach who has a different viewpoint then I do. I make sure I explain why I teach the things that I teach, and hope that other coaches do the same, so that the athlete has the knowledge to make up their own mind about what works best from them. For the sake of all our players, never just tell a girl to do something. Always explain to them why you are telling them to do something.
-W
