11 yo pitcher, advice

[rubberhead]

New to the forum, found it last night at 9p and didnt log off until 130a, great site!

Struggling a tad with my dd, here's the background and issue:

Has been pitching 1 season, has a pc that we see once a week for last 9 months. Practices with me on the bucket 3 other days a week for an hour. She's 11, right handed, is 5'5, 100lbs, tall, lean but muscular kid, very athletic, plays CF, 3b and hits better than she pitches, but really loves to pitch, loves the practice,works hard as nails and great attitude, demanding of herself

Very good location on the FB and on radar consistent at 48 and 49 with her PC, has a great change-up, low 30's which she throws consistent to either side, and is progressing well with her drop, excellent strides on this in the past couple weeks, can get it to do what its supposed to do 7 out of 10 times, the other 3 in the dirt pretty short to the right.

All in all pitching progressing very well, has gained 6 mph on FB since August, and location consistency has increased, can hit the proper quadrant for a strike 7 out of 10 fairly consistently. Aside from the biggest issue below, the two faults that crop up every once in a while are the forward lean producing a high left pitch, a flying elbow or fast hips producing low and inside (to a righty). She can recognize these and correct usually right away

Big Problem: Mechanically she is excellent, good stride, arm circle and arm speed, good posture, no forward lean (usually), BUT she has absolutley zero wrist snap. She is all arm circle/arm speed with some elbow "snap" at the bottom that is pushing the ball. I've tried relentlessly to help her visualize the snap, release, throw the fingers the bottom, whip, loose arm- you name it, we talk it. We also try to work it into the mechanics, but to no avail. Of note, her PC is a wave at the back and snap at the bottom to a high finish, not the IR mechanics I read about last night. At the end of our workout today i had her try the IR release on the 9 o'clock drill and it looked more like a flip change mechanic, further re-inforcing video evidence of no wrist action. (Although she does engage her wrist on the drop ball - pulls the fibgers/wrist up the back of the ball and over, not a peel drop)
On her FB "downswing" she usually does have the palm open towards third base slightly, so I think getting her transitioned to the IR will somewhat come natural.
So, the queston is, it seems a no brainer to get her over the IR release, BUT do I start it now? 2 weeks before middle school tryouts which she is jazzed about, and 4 weeks before her tournament team goes live on the dirt? She's the #1 pitcher on a first year very good 12u team and I'm not sure it's the right time to start monkeying with mechanics as she is more than functional now, also dont want to let the team down. Should we wait til season over, say July to October before fall ball starts? or will a full season of this flaw make it even harder to unlearn?
Is there anything I can do to start introducing it to her now so it can gradually take hold without impacting her current state?

Sorry so long, but just got done looking at her on video from today and we're making zero progress on the release in last 3 months. Good news is rest of mechanics progressing nicely. Wits end.
Will try to get some vide posted, just no idea how, pc dumb.
Thanks to all for your time and a wonderful site/service

 

[tojo]

New to the forum, found it last night at 9p and didnt log off until 130a, great site!

Struggling a tad with my dd, here's the background and issue:

Has been pitching 1 season, has a pc that we see once a week for last 9 months. Practices with me on the bucket 3 other days a week for an hour. She's 11, right handed, is 5'5, 100lbs, tall, lean but muscular kid, very athletic, plays CF, 3b and hits better than she pitches, but really loves to pitch, loves the practice,works hard as nails and great attitude, demanding of herself

Very good location on the FB and on radar consistent at 48 and 49 with her PC, has a great change-up, low 30's which she throws consistent to either side, and is progressing well with her drop, excellent strides on this in the past couple weeks, can get it to do what its supposed to do 7 out of 10 times, the other 3 in the dirt pretty short to the right.

All in all pitching progressing very well, has gained 6 mph on FB since August, and location consistency has increased, can hit the proper quadrant for a strike 7 out of 10 fairly consistently. Aside from the biggest issue below, the two faults that crop up every once in a while are the forward lean producing a high left pitch, a flying elbow or fast hips producing low and inside (to a righty). She can recognize these and correct usually right away

Big Problem: Mechanically she is excellent, good stride, arm circle and arm speed, good posture, no forward lean (usually), BUT she has absolutley zero wrist snap. She is all arm circle/arm speed with some elbow "snap" at the bottom that is pushing the ball. I've tried relentlessly to help her visualize the snap, release, throw the fingers the bottom, whip, loose arm- you name it, we talk it. We also try to work it into the mechanics, but to no avail. Of note, her PC is a wave at the back and snap at the bottom to a high finish, not the IR mechanics I read about last night. At the end of our workout today i had her try the IR release on the 9 o'clock drill and it looked more like a flip change mechanic, further re-inforcing video evidence of no wrist action. (Although she does engage her wrist on the drop ball - pulls the fibgers/wrist up the back of the ball and over, not a peel drop)
On her FB "downswing" she usually does have the palm open towards third base slightly, so I think getting her transitioned to the IR will somewhat come natural.
So, the queston is, it seems a no brainer to get her over the IR release, BUT do I start it now? 2 weeks before middle school tryouts which she is jazzed about, and 4 weeks before her tournament team goes live on the dirt? She's the #1 pitcher on a first year very good 12u team and I'm not sure it's the right time to start monkeying with mechanics as she is more than functional now, also dont want to let the team down. Should we wait til season over, say July to October before fall ball starts? or will a full season of this flaw make it even harder to unlearn?
Is there anything I can do to start introducing it to her now so it can gradually take hold without impacting her current state?

Sorry so long, but just got done looking at her on video from today and we're making zero progress on the release in last 3 months. Good news is rest of mechanics progressing nicely. Wits end.
Will try to get some vide posted, just no idea how, pc dumb.
Thanks to all for your time and a wonderful site/service

I like your DD body frame for a pitcher.I would suggest your DD start with the K position drill to begin developng IR and over time she can transistion to the full windmill pitching motion.I would not make any drastic changes to your DD's pitches this close to middle school ball. She has plenty of time to convert fully to IR at her age.
As to her wrist snap, I would try this drill. Have her get on her left knee and her right knee facing third. Start with her throwing hand on the frontside of her right thigh and do a windmill motion to the backside of the right thigh.When her forearm impacts the backside thigh, it will cause her wrist to snap and the rearward lean she will need to throw the ball under her leg can help with forward leaning you mentioned.
The drop ball you describe sounds like a turnover peel. If the ball is inside and in the dirt, I would look to her shoulder closing early and a lean forward at release. Hope this helps.

 

[lhowser]

When she's not snapping, her PC brings out the whiffle softball.

Good suggestion. I would have her do it from 12 or 9 o'clock just to get the feel.

A ball of socks made up of 2 or 3 pairs balled together witha few good rubberbands works nicely in the house.

A few things to look at:

Is her arm locked straight from 12 to release or does she lead with her elbow with a bend ?(see the sticky thread of videos with finch and Pauly).

is her hand cupped and turned toward the forearm on the way down. If so it cannot go last in the chain. make sure that wrist is somewhat relaxed and flexed back a little on the way down.

Currently I tell the young ones I am working with-"elbow, forearm,wrist, release" as a sequence and that seems to help. We start it in slo-mo to get the idea. (Of course if Boardmember or Hillhouse come on here and say that is a bad idea i defer to them).

 

[rubberhead]

all thanks for the info, love the wiffle ball idea.
lhowser - she's not locked,a little flex, leads with elbow, and wrist not cupped. it really does look nice all the way around and down, just at the release.
I'll try to get some video posted
Thanks again all

 

[Hustle Coach]

I think it was Rick Pauly on a thread here who said the wrist snap is only good for 1% of the total speed. He put wrist guards for bowlers on his pitchers and gunned them. If you do a wall drill the ball should touch the wall, with your palm facing the wall, all the way around until release. That is how you keep from locking your elbow.

 

[halskinner]

Rubberhead, is she also walking through the pitch after release? If she is leaning forward at release I would guess she has a short stride and no resistance against the front leg, or at least not much.

How tall is she and what is her stride length, front of the rubber to the tip of her stide foot shoe at touchdown?

Hal

 

[Ken Krause]

Is she consciously trying to snap the wrist? That could be the problem. The wrist should snap on its own. It will snap a lot faster of it is left loose and the hand accelerates past the elbow than if she physically tries to snap the wrist. Think of snapping a towel. There's no muscle in the end of a towel. But if you do it correctly, getting some whip, the little piece at the end (that corresponds to the hand) will become powerful.

To test this idea, have your daughter stand with a ball in her hand. Grab her forearm with both hands so she can only throw with the wrist, and then have her throw the ball. It won't go far. That's how "strong" the wrist is. Another test is to have her stiffen her wrist, close her fingers together, and then fan herself as fast as she can by snapping the wrist. It won't do much. Then have her loosen her wrist and use her forearm to move her hand. It will create a lot more air movement.

Of course, all of this is speculation. If you can post some video that might provide more clues.

 

[halskinner]

all thanks for the info, love the wiffle ball idea.
lhowser - she's not locked,a little flex, leads with elbow, and wrist not cupped. it really does look nice all the way around and down, just at the release.
I'll try to get some video posted
Thanks again all

I hope her hand is big enough for this. Have her hold the ball and do not let it touch the palm of the hand. Hold it with the fingertips, if she can.

Dont let any part of the palm touch any part of the ball.

Hal

 

[JC heir]

when I went to work with my DD on IR, she learned quickly as it was pretty natural, & my DD doesnt change ANYTHING quickly or easily. I wouldnt be afraid to have her throw IR from the K till she seems to have it then progress right into the windmill...essentially its either now or lose a year to improper mechanics...just my 2 cents

 

[Mike]

Very good location on the FB and on radar consistent at 48 and 49 with her PC,

At 11, if this is accurate I would not worry about wrists flips or trying to explain IR to her.

her PC is a wave at the back and snap at the bottom to a high finish, not the IR mechanics I read about last night.

If this is also true then...

Near the end of his Internal Rotation explanation he wrote.

IMO, if your instructor isn't ALLOWING or TEACHING some form of this sequence, YOU SHOULD QUICKLY MOVE ON........
Boardmember

I took what boardmember said to heart and it has worked out well for us. It was tough leaving at first but we got over it in about an hour. Her new PC doesn't speak of our may even know the term Internal Rotation, but he understands and promotes the proper way to throw a ball underhand. The place we left was greaqt in alot of ways but taught a bowling motion and would not even discuss anything else.

A video to preview would be nice. Good luck

Mike