13yo Maddie

Buttermaker said:

C'mon back to BBD. It's fun over there.

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If people could drop the egos and just talk hitting I would agree.

tjintx said:

Consider this image as it would pertain to a left handed hitter...
View attachment 12277
1 scap being retracted while the other is being protracted. Space is created for the barrel to work.
While the rear scap focus for some is to pinch, clamp, retract, or whatever you want to call it, there is no balance from an equal or opposite action in the front scap. Maybe they think the hitter will just FIO themselves, and maybe some will. there is plenty of room for experimenting with tensions and direction of scapular movement.
I guess a good question would be, If you clamp the rear scap to the spine, do you also clamp the front scap to the spine? If the answer is no then an explanation is needed, if they say it doesn't matter what you do with the front scap then I would say their teaching or understanding is lacking. There is room for improvement.
The front scap supports the front arm, so how it moves within the sequence is important because the front arm needs to set barrel plane uninhibited while the lower body directs the macro or mass direction.

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I would like to return to this post in an effort to better understand the movement. I think there are several things in this post that are important to consider. And while "retraction" may not be the proper anatomical term, I will try to better explain where my 'feel' comes from. Let's start with the bench press exercise posted below. In this video, the lifter is focusing on a 'negative'. He is allowing the bar to fall to his chest, but he is doing so in a deliberate and controlled method. What direction is the bar moving? Down. But what direction is he pushing? Up. It just happens that the amount of force he is applying in the upward direction is not enough to overcome the effect of gravity. Therefore the bar is going down.



As tjintx has implied, the front scap is also involved. I see it as a balancing of sorts. The rear scap seems to be the body part that many will focus on, especially during the loading process of the swing. But if there is no 'balance' or 'resistance' provided by the front scap, I don't think a hitter will fulfill their potential. I do agree with FFS, that if there is too much focus on the front scap, that the hitter will fly open (I think is the phrase he used). But if the front scap does not provide enough resistance, I believe other issues will occur. Arm bar, maybe some premature casting, etc.



If someone has other thoughts concerning this, please join the convo. I am always interested in learning...

NOTE: Still gathering my thoughts, so I may stop back to this post later...

FP26 said:

I would like to return to this post in an effort to better understand the movement. I think there are several things in this post that are important to consider. And while "retraction" may not be the proper anatomical term, I will try to better explain where my 'feel' comes from. Let's start with the bench press exercise posted below. In this video, the lifter is focusing on a 'negative'. He is allowing the bar to fall to his chest, but he is doing so in a deliberate and controlled method. What direction is the bar moving? Down. But what direction is he pushing? Up. It just happens that the amount of force he is applying in the upward direction is not enough to overcome the effect of gravity. Therefore the bar is going down.

As tjintx has implied, the front scap is also involved. I see it as a balancing of sorts. The rear scap seems to be the body part that many will focus on, especially during the loading process of the swing. But if there is no 'balance' or 'resistance' provided by the front scap, I don't think a hitter will fulfill their potential. I do agree with FFS, that if there is too much focus on the front scap, that the hitter will fly open (I think is the phrase he used). But if the front scap does not provide enough resistance, I believe other issues will occur. Arm bar, maybe some premature casting, etc.

If someone has other thoughts concerning this, please join the convo. I am always interested in learning...

NOTE: Still gathering my thoughts, so I may stop back to this post later...

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FP26, in your bench press example, shoulder retraction is taking place in both shoulders.

I want zero front-shoulder retraction taking place in during the portion of the swing we are discussing.

Regarding "flying open" ... my focus here is not on the front scap per-say, but on the front shoulder resisting opening.

Generally 'arm bar' is spoken of within the sequence ... that is 'arm bar' is when a player extends the lead arm fully and THEN shifts the weight. It's a sequence and mechanics issue. Technically your concern during the segment of the swing we are discussing is not 'arm bar'. My guess is that you are concerned that the lead arm may lengthen during this segment of the swing? If so, then IMO that is perfectly okay ... and personally I don't want to see the opposite (i.e., the arm angle decreasing during this segment of the swing).

Not sure what your concern is with premature casting. Restricting the lead shoulder from retracting during this segment of the swing does not lead to premature casting with my hitters.

FiveFrameSwing said:

FP26, in your bench press example, shoulder retraction is taking place in both shoulders.

I want zero front-shoulder retraction taking place in during the portion of the swing we are discussing.

Regarding "flying open" ... my focus here is not on the front scap per-say, but on the front shoulder resisting opening.

Generally 'arm bar' is spoken of within the sequence ... that is 'arm bar' is when a player extends the lead arm fully and THEN shifts the weight. It's a sequence and mechanics issue. Technically your concern during the segment of the swing we are discussing is not 'arm bar'. My guess is that you are concerned that the lead arm may lengthen during this segment of the swing? If so, then IMO that is perfectly okay ... and personally I don't want to see the opposite (i.e., the arm angle decreasing during this segment of the swing).

Not sure what your concern is with premature casting. Restricting the lead shoulder from retracting during this segment of the swing does not lead to premature casting with my hitters.

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FFS, you seem to be getting hung up on the word "retraction". If the term is not correct for that specific movement, I am fine with it. And I wouldn't say that I 'am concerned' that the lead arm may lengthen during this segment of the swing. To the contrary, I actually want the lead arm to lengthen. But I don't want it to lengthen too far. That is part of the role I think the lead scap plays. Both scaps are engaged at this segment of the swing, and it seems that most people tend to focus on the rear scap. And I am not trying to minimize the importance of the rear scap. Just trying to point out that the front scap also has a role which seems to be overlooked. If the front scap is not engaged, it is my belief that the front arm will straighten too much. That was actually the point of the bench press video. The lifter's goal is to balance out the dropping of the weight so that it is controlled. If he did not have his muscles engaged in an attempt to balance the weight, the force of gravity would bring the bar down to his chest much faster. If the front scap is overly engaged, problems will occur. If the front scap is under engaged, problems will occur. Just trying to point out that it plays a role and won't always happen automatically if ignored. Sorry if I am not explaining myself too well...

added: Yeah, reading through your post, it is very clear that I didn't do a very good job of explaining myself. You misinterpreted everything I wrote. I will try to develop a clearer way of explaining it.

FP26, my concern about using the word 'retraction' is because that is what I don't want happening with the lead shoulder at this point in the swing.

I do believe the front shoulder is important at this point in the swing. We need to get the 'message' delivered to the barrel quickly ... hence why I use the term 'fusion'. I don't believe one is actively, or inactively, retracting the front shoulder at this point in the swing.

I do not follow you when you write of the front scap being under engaged .... what do you believe the front scap is engaged in doing at this point in the swing?

If you consider retraction a form of pulling back and protraction a form of pushing forward or away then retraction would be a form of pulling off the ball, IE putting the shoulders in line with the pelvis as an energy force. Let that sink in. Does it confuse you more or less?

Watch how stable this hitter's upper back is from his left shoulder to his right shoulder as he launches his swing. If the muscles on the front side (I am suggesting the traps) are not active, the entire complex would not be this stable. The front side needs to work together with the rear side in order to make this happen.

This was one of Maddie's top-5 hardest hit balls to date...


1-2 count against a pitcher with decent speed, movement, and location - one of the better pitchers Maddie has faced. Unfortunately, LF made an outstanding running catch somewhere in the 210-220' zone. Damn!

A slightly different angle of the same swing...

Wait, you've got multiple cameras on her! lol