- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,798
- 63
Hi John, good to hear from you again. I see you still have your good sense of humor.
Mike
.......
Slapper23 said:
Name Please........
A PM will do.......Slapper23 said:
Very well thx......How's the HS team looking?
Hitting Questions?
- Thread starter SISOFTBALL
- Start date
Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch
Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.
.......
Name Please........
A PM will do.......Very well thx......How's the HS team looking?
For the killer B's:
B25, I have exchanged enough ideas with Nyman and Emglishbey to know the way they see the swing. The swing they desxcribes is not at all like the MLB pattern resembling overhand throw as described (see linked examples) by Slaught/Candrea/Enquist.
Completely different rhythm/sequence/flow of positions. Nothing in middle out Nyman swing is like live and independent hands.
Nyman has certain requirements of PCR which force it to be a non MLB pattern, especially how scaps function to turn arms bat in shoulder plane.
This is the MOST important feature determining whether the pattern is 1 (PCR) v 2 (MLB) as shown by Hardy in golf.
If PCR becomes any more general, it becomes meaningless.
So either you follow NYman and get the 1 plane gate swing OR you say PCR and it has no meaning.
BM-
Try to stay on subject. The guidelines here are to avoid ad hominem off topic exchanges. Link whatever you want. In addition to this discussion, here are some topic areas I would encourage for you regarding the MLB patern:
1- how does the candrea.Slaught.enquist pattern fit/not fit the pttern ?
2- how can the bat turn early in the hands withiut unhinging the lead wristr
3- how can you drop and tilt the way Epstein describes without reverse pivoting
4- why is looking at tilt fron the pitchers view a fairly useless way to assess adjustment
B25, I have exchanged enough ideas with Nyman and Emglishbey to know the way they see the swing. The swing they desxcribes is not at all like the MLB pattern resembling overhand throw as described (see linked examples) by Slaught/Candrea/Enquist.
Completely different rhythm/sequence/flow of positions. Nothing in middle out Nyman swing is like live and independent hands.
Nyman has certain requirements of PCR which force it to be a non MLB pattern, especially how scaps function to turn arms bat in shoulder plane.
This is the MOST important feature determining whether the pattern is 1 (PCR) v 2 (MLB) as shown by Hardy in golf.
If PCR becomes any more general, it becomes meaningless.
So either you follow NYman and get the 1 plane gate swing OR you say PCR and it has no meaning.
BM-
Try to stay on subject. The guidelines here are to avoid ad hominem off topic exchanges. Link whatever you want. In addition to this discussion, here are some topic areas I would encourage for you regarding the MLB patern:
1- how does the candrea.Slaught.enquist pattern fit/not fit the pttern ?
2- how can the bat turn early in the hands withiut unhinging the lead wristr
3- how can you drop and tilt the way Epstein describes without reverse pivoting
4- why is looking at tilt fron the pitchers view a fairly useless way to assess adjustment
After reading all this back and forth I'm still not clear on the big difference between what Epstein teaches and what Englishbey teaches.
As I watch the video clip of Steve swinging that he has posted on his website, I don't see where the differences are.
As I watch the video clip of Steve swinging that he has posted on his website, I don't see where the differences are.
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,798
- 63
Mark said...
Wow! Hence my point below, perfectly illustrated by Mark...
I forgot the other refrain from some PCR guys..."you are mis-representing what Steve teaches." Yawn.
And then comes the Coup de Grace from Mark, and believe me, this is the money shot -
There you will be shown what to believe, or you'll be out on your bum!
Mike
Wow! Hence my point below, perfectly illustrated by Mark...
I forgot the other refrain from some PCR guys..."you are mis-representing what Steve teaches." Yawn.
And then comes the Coup de Grace from Mark, and believe me, this is the money shot -
There you will be shown what to believe, or you'll be out on your bum!
Mike
I have Epstein's material, but I'm not one of these people who becomes a die hard fan of any one particular instructor. In fact I prefer that the person's ideas I'm using be challenged, because in the end I always learn something.
I stumbled onto Steve's site a couple of years ago. I recently registered so I could gain access to the open part of the boards on his site.
I guess I'm just dense, because when I read some of the stuff on his site as well as on this site, I hear pretty much the same stuff Epstein is saying.
Yes, they say it in a completely different way, but the end result of what the final swing looks like appears very similar to my eye.
When Steve talks about connection and hinge angle I hear Epstein say slot the back elbow and lead with the front elbow or stay in the envelope.
When Steve talks about tilting the body to match swing planes (I think he says this), I hear Epstein saying to weather vane and to make on the fly adjustments while still trying to maintain the envelope (hinge angle).
Epstein teaches having a flexed front knee during the toe touch phase of the swing. As far as I can tell so does Steve.
Epstein teaches to trigger the hips after toe touch or into heel plant. I'm not sure what Steve teaches here, but based on his video clip it sure looks similar.
I'm just wondering out loud if they are arguing over semantics in the interest of gaining market share?
I stumbled onto Steve's site a couple of years ago. I recently registered so I could gain access to the open part of the boards on his site.
I guess I'm just dense, because when I read some of the stuff on his site as well as on this site, I hear pretty much the same stuff Epstein is saying.
Yes, they say it in a completely different way, but the end result of what the final swing looks like appears very similar to my eye.
When Steve talks about connection and hinge angle I hear Epstein say slot the back elbow and lead with the front elbow or stay in the envelope.
When Steve talks about tilting the body to match swing planes (I think he says this), I hear Epstein saying to weather vane and to make on the fly adjustments while still trying to maintain the envelope (hinge angle).
Epstein teaches having a flexed front knee during the toe touch phase of the swing. As far as I can tell so does Steve.
Epstein teaches to trigger the hips after toe touch or into heel plant. I'm not sure what Steve teaches here, but based on his video clip it sure looks similar.
I'm just wondering out loud if they are arguing over semantics in the interest of gaining market share?
For the killer B's:
B25, I have exchanged enough ideas with Nyman and Emglishbey to know the way they see the swing. The swing they describes is not at all like the MLB pattern resembling overhand throw as described (see linked examples) by Slaught/Candrea/Enquist.
Tom, I talk to SE once a week. I don't and can't speak for your conversations. How long ago did you talk with SE? I'm taking a shot that you haven't talked to him in 4 or 5 years. How close am I? 4 or 5 years ago, I was a conspiracy advocate in the JFK Assassination.
Completely different rhythm/sequence/flow of positions. Nothing in middle out Nyman swing is like live and independent hands.
Nothing is "middle out?" So you don't see tilt in the pelvic area. You don't see the hips as having great importance. You see the arms by passing the shoulders and telling the brain and body what to do? You see Hitters as being vertical in all phases of the swing. You discount that the serepe effect matters at all and so there is no relationship between opposite hips and shoulders?
Nyman has certain requirements of PCR which force it to be a non MLB pattern, especially how scaps function to turn arms bat in shoulder plane.
Again, BY NYMAN'S OWN DEFINITION PCR MUST BE OBSERVED/REFERENCED IN THE MLB SWING!
This is the MOST important feature determining whether the pattern is 1 (PCR) v 2 (MLB) as shown by Hardy in golf.
Tom, how many times do people have to cite that you purposely misrepresent this point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssarge
And meaningless, when you consider that Jim Hardy - the author of the golf book TG quotes - HIMSELF says that the ONE-PLANE golf swing is most representative of the MLB swing. TG of course corrects him, and asserts what he REALLY means, but that is what Hardy says.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoardMember
And the fallacy continues.........
Jim Hardy and Peter J.:
Quote:
"The one plane swing is like a baseball swing."
Peter Jackobson:
Quote:
"I'm hitting the ball much farther with a 1 plane swing then I was with a 2 plane swing."
Jim Hardy:
Quote:
"As you can see, the hips are almost square to impact with a 2 plane swing, vs. the hips really driving through and rotating toward the target much further on a 1 plane swing."
Jim Hardy:
Quote:
"The 2 plane swing is like a ferris wheel where the hands and arms move up and down relative to the bodys rotation. The one planer tilts over a bit more and the arms and hands move around the body more like a baseball swing."
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssarge
From The Plane Truth About Golf, by Jim Hardy:
(emphasis added)
"The actions of the arms in the one -plane downswing is very similar to that of a baseball swing .That is, at the top of the backswing, your left arm is across your chest with your right behind you, folded with the elbow pointing slightly behind you. Now if you look at the great power hitters in baseball. you'll see that from this position, they turn their shoulders and upper torso as hard and fast as they can toward the coming pitch.
"The torso is like an inner of centripetal force whose movement activates the bat, which receives the outer or centrifugal effect when this force and its effects are applied correctly, the bat comes thru with crashing speed to meet the ball.
"Its the same principle in the one plane golf swing. You don't throw your arms and club at the ball; rather they get thrown around by the turn of the shoulders and torso."
This point was further made in a recent link:
Groove a One Plane Golf Swing Automatically
If PCR becomes any more general, it becomes meaningless.
So either you follow NYman and get the 1 plane gate swing OR you say PCR and it has no meaning.
BM-
Try to stay on subject. The guidelines here are to avoid ad hominem off topic exchanges. Link whatever you want. In addition to this discussion, here are some topic areas I would encourage for you regarding the MLB patern:
1- how does the candrea.Slaught.enquist pattern fit/not fit the pttern ?
2- how can the bat turn early in the hands withiut unhinging the lead wristr
3- how can you drop and tilt the way Epstein describes without reverse pivoting
4- why is looking at tilt fron the pitchers view a fairly useless way to assess adjustment
.................
Tom,
I just noticed your reference to me as a "killer B." LOL! No one I know puts much stock into what I say. However, I do speak from experience. My personal experience. I participate in these threads as a resource who's only agenda is to speak from that experience. I don't have to be right. After all, my dd's a pitcher as well. If all of the members listed to me and my hitting advice, she's in trouble.
I just noticed your reference to me as a "killer B." LOL! No one I know puts much stock into what I say. However, I do speak from experience. My personal experience. I participate in these threads as a resource who's only agenda is to speak from that experience. I don't have to be right. After all, my dd's a pitcher as well. If all of the members listed to me and my hitting advice, she's in trouble.
B25 -
You are a killer B in terms of killing off some good discussions at hsbaseballweb with your biased moderating. You should consider giving that job up as should JAke at bbf. level of discussion has gone way down.
But anyway, this is way off point. What are the specifics you want addressed. The Nyman/Hardy stuff we have been over.
BM-
If you want to hear similarities between throw and swing start a thread. Studying this requires a throwing model.
What's yours ?
You are a killer B in terms of killing off some good discussions at hsbaseballweb with your biased moderating. You should consider giving that job up as should JAke at bbf. level of discussion has gone way down.
But anyway, this is way off point. What are the specifics you want addressed. The Nyman/Hardy stuff we have been over.
BM-
If you want to hear similarities between throw and swing start a thread. Studying this requires a throwing model.
What's yours ?
