The Kelly Barnhill Thread

[Dial]

Interesting, the demonstration at 1:50

At the 1:50 point where she shows what she does she actually pitches legal.

PS... I didnt see that Knight made the same reference.

 

[riseball]

Further proof she is a complete fraud who has duped a clueless media.

 

[Rick Pauly]

This thread seems to be rivaling "Does the riseball really rise" threads......and has about the same amount of thinking on each side of the equation.

Rick - thanks for the thoughtful post. I do have a couple of comments and questions.

1) you say that because Barnhill is closer to the batter (because of her crow hop) that the angle of the riseball is greater but I don't understand how Barnhill is so much better than the other D1 pitchers who get to the front of the pitching circle just like her?

It's simple......she throws faster than the other girls....faster equals less time for gravity to pull the ball down (flatten out)....she really doesn't need great riseball spin with the improved release angle because of the shortened distance. She should pitch legally and then her riseball would be significantly less effective.....still good, but less effective. How about if we let the legal pitchers push off from the same place Barnhill does her second push.....we would have a bunch of extremely dominating riseball pitchers.....probably one reason why the pitching distance was moved back to 43 ft. from 40 ft. Every pitcher has different physical gifts.....if Barnhill could leap and drag to the front of the circle and throw a killer riseball I would be her biggest cheerleader........her and everyone else should have to play within the rules............or maybe we should have two basket heights in basketball....one for short people and a one for tall people.

2) are you saying that leaping should be allowed but the replant be outlawed?

Leap and drag is legal.........crowhopping is not legal. Play by the rules....or heck we might as well get rid of the pitching lane and let them throw from 1st base.

3) why do you think it's so difficult for many elite pitchers to drag their pivot foot every time if it's a natural and more efficient move to drag the back foot along the ground. Wouldn't we rarely see leaping if it's so easy to comply with leap and drag?

Not sure who claimed that the leap and drag is natural and more efficient....but,Leap and drag pitchers
don't land on, bear weight and push a second time. They land one time.....they push one time from the legal position....the rubber. However, it is relatively easy to leap and drag. I'm kind of big on following the rules.

4) is it better to allow unlimited leaping and crow hopping with no penalty for a large number of pitchers (as is the current no IP call by umpires) that's harms legal pitchers who are in compliance or should we change the rules to allow everyone that same opportunity?

Nope, leave the rules the way they are....make everyone learn to pitch within the rules. As I stated earlier......if crowhopping is made legal I will bet that within 3 years the pitching distance will be moved back to 46 feet because of the lack of offense....and lost viewership because most games will become a soccer snooze fest. I hope the powers to be can see the ramifications down the road. If we followed that logic then we need to do away with the pitching lane....let them crowhop and repush from 1st base.

5) lastly, many men and women sports have the same rules (e.g. Soccer, basketball, swimming, track and field, tennis, etc) what is so bad about having the same rules in fastptich?
And many sports have different rules for men and women.....many because of the difference in strength between males and females.

I find it interesting that baseball just reinforced it's rule on the second push but many in softball don't see the advantage in the second push. I wonder why baseball didn't just say let it happen and the others can do it if they want to also.

Ever watch a men's fastpitch game lately......the crowhopping is a joke....a rapidly dying sport. It was tough enough to hit prior to crowhopping....now it is really tough...and boring. Oh, BTW, the men crowhop way outside anything resembling a pitching lane.....that will be next for the women's game.

Thanks.

 

[Hillhouse]

5) lastly, many men and women sports have the same rules (e.g. Soccer, basketball, swimming, track and field, tennis, etc) what is so bad about having the same rules in fastptich?

Thanks.[/QUOTE]

First of all... prayers to England in their time of need!!!!

Rocket, let me give you a little background. First, your #5 wish is a reality. In ISF/Olympic play the rules for men and women are the same. In every country except USA the rules are the same for men and women. That mean's 2 feet on the rubber and no crowhopping. So, it sort of dismisses your argument. Why does ASA allow men to crow hop? Easy, it's about the money. What fails to be known here is that men's fastpitch didn't "Just start to decline". The # of teams has been diminishing since WWII. But there was so many teams that the decline wasn't seen then. As a men's fastpitch historian, i can assure you of this fact. When things started to get "critical" for the survival of men's FP, the pitching rules changes to #1. make it easier to pitchers to learn to pitch (it's much easier when there's less rules to follow). More pitchers equals more teams, equals more registrations for ASA. #2. It made it easier for older pitchers to continue pitching. Ty Stofflet, on of the (if not THE) greatest ever, pitched until he was in his 50's and won games at the World level. #3. Nobody in the men's game cares about leaping/crowhopping as the ball still has to cross the plate. That may sound like a petty argument but it's the truth. And if you think the death of men's FP has to do with the pitching rule, you're sorely mistaken. Men's teams don't have parents or fans screaming illegal pitch!! They just want to play ball. The ISF recently changed the pitching rules for both genders by ALLOWING the leap. and it won't be long until the NCAA follows suit. Why? Because what feeds the USA women's team? NCAA. So, if the ISF rules are "A" and the NCAA rules are "B", then the two aren't jiving. And its time we get rid of these antiquated rules for pitchers while hitters are using titanium bats and polycore softballs. Giving the pitcher some form of an edge back to make the game FASTPITCH again is necessary. 6-5 games are not what the history of fastpitch is about. Some call that boring. Other's call that a great game when it's 2-1 . And as a pitcher who worked is a$$ off for his entire life, I hate losing games on pop flies that go 251 feet because of 2017 bats and balls. Hit is 300 ft, I'll know I got beat. But many of today's HR's are ridiculous.

People want to crucify this Barnhill girl for getting away with her pitching motion. And many people would say "I would never teach my DD to cheat". But let me ask you this... if the umpire was giving your DD 3 feet on the outside of the plate for a strike, would you tell her to constantly throw there or would you say "No, that's against the rules for the ump to call a ball into a strike.... you should really throw it over the plate". Is it really that much different? I'm not saying to teach your kid to cheat. I'm saying you do what you get away with. And anyone who says that's BS is lying. Because EVERYONE would throw the ball over the batter's head if the umpire would call it a strike. Umpire isn't calling it a ball, they obviously don't know the zone. Slappers are routinely out of the box getting an advantage. Base runners leave early to get an advantage and pitchers do what they can for an advantage.

And whomever said we should separate the men's game from the women's game.... ha! Do you know how many guys I played with that are coaches at Division 1 schools? here's a small list: Mike White Oregon, Mike Roberts Washington, Peter Turner San Jose St, John Bargfeldt Tulsa, Shawn Rychcik NC State, Ken Eriksen USF, Cody Thomson Utah, Pete Meredith and Gord Eakin BYU, Mike Larabee Central Washington, Larry Hineline Morgan State, Kyle Jamison Fordham, Roman Foore Arizona State, Travis Wilson Florida state,... I could go on. What's my point? The women's game is slowly turning into the men's game. Watch how the pitchers bring the ball to their side to hide the gripe from the 3rd base coach, Listen to the coaches pick the pitcher and call out pitches from pitchers who don't hide it, were never taught to hide it, etc. More and more men's FP players are entering the women's game which is going to revolutionize the sport and it's already started. NCAA coaches love men who can throw BP to throw with speeds and movement in excess of what they will see from their opponents. They are teaching girls to pick pitchers. Both are reasons that hitting has improved so drastically (along with balls and bats).

Mike Candrea will tell you he initially learned FP from watching the men's teams so he could see the game at it's best. Pat Murphy shows up at every men's world tournament when it's in Iowa (every other year) as that's where he's from and he watches the men at the highest level play. Lu Harris of Georgia came to my hometown during my world class tournament to see me pitch and recruit me as her pitching consultant a few years ago. So, anyone who doesn't think the men's game is bleeding into the women's game should look again. It's hemorrhaging into it.

Just my 2 cents as I sit here.

Bill Hillhouse

 

[FastPitchCat]

But let me ask you this... if the umpire was giving your DD 3 feet on the outside of the plate for a strike, would you tell her to constantly throw there or would you say "No, that's against the rules for the ump to call a ball into a strike.... you should really throw it over the plate". Is it really that much different? I'm not saying to teach your kid to cheat. I'm saying you do what you get away with. And anyone who says that's BS is lying. Because EVERYONE would throw the ball over the batter's head if the umpire would call it a strike. Umpire isn't calling it a ball, they obviously don't know the zone. Slappers are routinely out of the box getting an advantage. Base runners leave early to get an advantage and pitchers do what they can for an advantage.

Bill Hillhouse

good discussion there.
it seems like you are advocating do whatever you can to get ahead, get an advantage. if it doesn't get called, you win.
if you don't use that to your advantage, you lose. rules be damned.

what happens now to those girls who 'follow the rules' ? sorry to them?
i guess the problem isn't the pitchers. it's those umpires who DONT call them, because some still do and that's just a huge disparity right there.
Some pitchers get called right away, some get away with the most blatant of violations.

Maybe UMPS should wear a sign "I DON'T CALL ILLEGAL PITCHES"?

my 2 cents

 

[nanotech14]

First off Bill I hope you are feeling better. I know what you are saying is right Bill, but you worked with Emily for a few years. How does she go from being legal in the current women's game to not. I guess what everyone is saying is Barnhill can get away with it, should I have Emily try and see what she can get away with or is it just because its the Florida Gators. Emily is going to Grove City College will it fly in Div.3?

 

[riseball]

...People want to crucify this Barnhill girl for getting away with her pitching motion. And many people would say "I would never teach my DD to cheat". But let me ask you this... if the umpire was giving your DD 3 feet on the outside of the plate for a strike, would you tell her to constantly throw there or would you say "No, that's against the rules for the ump to call a ball into a strike.... you should really throw it over the plate". Is it really that much different? I'm not saying to teach your kid to cheat. I'm saying you do what you get away with. And anyone who says that's BS is lying. Because EVERYONE would throw the ball over the batter's head if the umpire would call it a strike. Umpire isn't calling it a ball, they obviously don't know the zone. Slappers are routinely out of the box getting an advantage. Base runners leave early to get an advantage and pitchers do what they can for an advantage...

To your point, although umpires zones vary I have yet to see one regularly call a strike 3 feet out or over a batters head, so let's put the hyperbole aside. What is not hyperbole is that one pitcher in particular is dominating the game due to a free pass on her unique and blatantly illegal pitching motion. It would be a very different story were many or even some pitchers were allowed to pitch outside the rules to realize such an advantage. However, that is not the case. If what you say comes true and the NCAA goes the way of the mens game and allows a leap, is there anyone naive enough who believes that this one pitcher will suddenly get called for a replant? Or the pitching lane rules will be vigorously enforced? If so I have a great deal on a bridge!

 

[Rocketech1]

5) lastly, many men and women sports have the same rules (e.g. Soccer, basketball, swimming, track and field, tennis, etc) what is so bad about having the same rules in fastptich?

Thanks.

First of all... prayers to England in their time of need!!!!

Rocket, let me give you a little background. First, your #5 wish is a reality. In ISF/Olympic play the rules for men and women are the same. In every country except USA the rules are the same for men and women. That mean's 2 feet on the rubber and no crowhopping. So, it sort of dismisses your argument. Why does ASA allow men to crow hop? Easy, it's about the money. What fails to be known here is that men's fastpitch didn't "Just start to decline". The # of teams has been diminishing since WWII. But there was so many teams that the decline wasn't seen then. As a men's fastpitch historian, i can assure you of this fact. When things started to get "critical" for the survival of men's FP, the pitching rules changes to #1. make it easier to pitchers to learn to pitch (it's much easier when there's less rules to follow). More pitchers equals more teams, equals more registrations for ASA. #2. It made it easier for older pitchers to continue pitching. Ty Stofflet, on of the (if not THE) greatest ever, pitched until he was in his 50's and won games at the World level. #3. Nobody in the men's game cares about leaping/crowhopping as the ball still has to cross the plate. That may sound like a petty argument but it's the truth. And if you think the death of men's FP has to do with the pitching rule, you're sorely mistaken. Men's teams don't have parents or fans screaming illegal pitch!! They just want to play ball. The ISF recently changed the pitching rules for both genders by ALLOWING the leap. and it won't be long until the NCAA follows suit. Why? Because what feeds the USA women's team? NCAA. So, if the ISF rules are "A" and the NCAA rules are "B", then the two aren't jiving. And its time we get rid of these antiquated rules for pitchers while hitters are using titanium bats and polycore softballs. Giving the pitcher some form of an edge back to make the game FASTPITCH again is necessary. 6-5 games are not what the history of fastpitch is about. Some call that boring. Other's call that a great game when it's 2-1 . And as a pitcher who worked is a$$ off for his entire life, I hate losing games on pop flies that go 251 feet because of 2017 bats and balls. Hit is 300 ft, I'll know I got beat. But many of today's HR's are ridiculous.

People want to crucify this Barnhill girl for getting away with her pitching motion. And many people would say "I would never teach my DD to cheat". But let me ask you this... if the umpire was giving your DD 3 feet on the outside of the plate for a strike, would you tell her to constantly throw there or would you say "No, that's against the rules for the ump to call a ball into a strike.... you should really throw it over the plate". Is it really that much different? I'm not saying to teach your kid to cheat. I'm saying you do what you get away with. And anyone who says that's BS is lying. Because EVERYONE would throw the ball over the batter's head if the umpire would call it a strike. Umpire isn't calling it a ball, they obviously don't know the zone. Slappers are routinely out of the box getting an advantage. Base runners leave early to get an advantage and pitchers do what they can for an advantage.

And whomever said we should separate the men's game from the women's game.... ha! Do you know how many guys I played with that are coaches at Division 1 schools? here's a small list: Mike White Oregon, Mike Roberts Washington, Peter Turner San Jose St, John Bargfeldt Tulsa, Shawn Rychcik NC State, Ken Eriksen USF, Cody Thomson Utah, Pete Meredith and Gord Eakin BYU, Mike Larabee Central Washington, Larry Hineline Morgan State, Kyle Jamison Fordham, Roman Foore Arizona State, Travis Wilson Florida state,... I could go on. What's my point? The women's game is slowly turning into the men's game. Watch how the pitchers bring the ball to their side to hide the gripe from the 3rd base coach, Listen to the coaches pick the pitcher and call out pitches from pitchers who don't hide it, were never taught to hide it, etc. More and more men's FP players are entering the women's game which is going to revolutionize the sport and it's already started. NCAA coaches love men who can throw BP to throw with speeds and movement in excess of what they will see from their opponents. They are teaching girls to pick pitchers. Both are reasons that hitting has improved so drastically (along with balls and bats).

Mike Candrea will tell you he initially learned FP from watching the men's teams so he could see the game at it's best. Pat Murphy shows up at every men's world tournament when it's in Iowa (every other year) as that's where he's from and he watches the men at the highest level play. Lu Harris of Georgia came to my hometown during my world class tournament to see me pitch and recruit me as her pitching consultant a few years ago. So, anyone who doesn't think the men's game is bleeding into the women's game should look again. It's hemorrhaging into it.

Just my 2 cents as I sit here.

Bill Hillhouse[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing your perspective Bill!

 

[knightsb]

[MENTION=674]Hillhouse[/MENTION], in your opinion is there any doubt in your mind that Barnhill is replanting? If she is replanting, why, in your opinion, is it not being called?


In which Barnhill image does the pivot foot bear weight after the initial push, and which does not?

 

[Hillhouse]

good discussion there.
it seems like you are advocating do whatever you can to get ahead, get an advantage. if it doesn't get called, you win.
if you don't use that to your advantage, you lose. rules be damned.

what happens now to those girls who 'follow the rules' ? sorry to them?
i guess the problem isn't the pitchers. it's those umpires who DONT call them, because some still do and that's just a huge disparity right there.
Some pitchers get called right away, some get away with the most blatant of violations.

Maybe UMPS should wear a sign "I DON'T CALL ILLEGAL PITCHES"?

my 2 cents

Listen here Fastpitchcat... as Bobby The Brain Henian said in pro wrestling: win if you can, lose if you have to, but always always CHEAT. ha ha

I'm asking this question out of ignorance, I truly don't know: is this Barnhill the fastest pitcher in the game? From what little I've seen from the screen shots on here, her pitches seen to finish way out of the zone. So, it's funny that nobody is critical of the hitters for swinging at crappy pitches. I said it before i'll say it again, the ball has to cross the plate regardless of the motion. Barnhill gives so many opportunites to see what pitch is coming that she may as well have her catcher hold the signals up in the air so everyone can see. She does NOTHING to hide her pitches. I realize that's beside the point from the "crowhop" thing though.

What happens to the girls who follow the rules? Well, couldn't you make the same argument about the slappers who slap legitimately and get out more often than the ones that don't? Or the baserunner who consistently leaves early and gets the SB vs. the girl who stays on until the ball has fully left the pitcher's hand? the truth is, getting an advantage counts. And when it's on your team you tend to see it less (I'm not speaking to anyone in particular, it's just a general statement).

i'm not saying rules be damned. I'm saying the rules are whatever the umpire says they are. just as it's the same for the strikezone. Or leaving early from the base. Or using illegal bats.

Bill