The rear leg

[RayR]

Mann - if you are used to using two legs to create bat speed - then what Booth says makes sense. What Yeager says makes sense. But, it is not what Pujols and Bustos and Cabrera and Bonds do.....

The rear legged golfer doesn't have a front leg to rely on - so he actually does what elite hitters do that have 2 legs....they use the rear leg to pivot around - they swing behind the rear hip....

Take a swing just on your rear leg - can you do it and not fall down?

 

[HYP]

Actually i believe in what J booth says, because i see it in the high level swings.
i like to believe in my eyes, and what i feel when i swing, not what i am told, like resist getting to the front side.

I am from the camp, it takes two legs to swing.

I am still interested in why you think, the swing hinges on the back leg, and how in does all it does, without weight.
Is it MOMENTUM?
sorry Mts, its early, here in the northwest.

Mann,

Can you explain to me, using the above clips when the weight shifts to the front foot and then, because of the push back, when it shifts back to the rear foot?

but once the weight gets to the front foot, the back leg loses it's ability to push, and that happens before the hips get fully turned.

The weight is on the front foot from about the bat lag position, up until contact, and then it goes back onto the back foot.

Also, can you or Booth explain when the rear leg loses the ability to supply energy? Also, IMO, the barrel is lagging the whole time it is behind the rear hip.

 

[jbooth]

Mann - if you are used to using two legs to create bat speed - then what Booth says makes sense. What Yeager says makes sense. But, it is not what Pujols and Bustos and Cabrera and Bonds do.....

The rear legged golfer doesn't have a front leg to rely on - so he actually does what elite hitters do that have 2 legs....they use the rear leg to pivot around - they swing behind the rear hip....

Take a swing just on your rear leg - can you do it and not fall down?

This is completely inaccurate. But, I guess you will never understand it.

MLB hitters DO use two legs. ALL of them. You just don't understand (from a technical/bio-mechanical perspective) how they use them. And, BTW, the rear legged golfer uses almost entirely external rotation of the femur, in order to rotate his torso. He also uses the obliques strongly.

 

[jbooth]

IR is defined in joint motion terms, ball of femur relative to socket/acetabulum, not in terms of exactly what muscles are active. muscle action varies, open chain v closed chain and infinite other variations, see, for example:

What's a Hip Turn? Part 2 :: Oceanic Time Warner Cable's AroundHawaii.com

muscles can articulate different movements depending upon their positioning in relation to their attachments and which part of the muscle is at work.

That is why the movements are going to be a bit difficult to distinguish at times but we’ll have to rely on position of the bones, joints and research that has already been done in this field.


The major muscles of the spine engine are multi-planar and much more complex than your bicep! This is because the hip joint is a ball and socket type of joint (synovial) that has a large amount of three dimensional movement available and the muscles’ positioning on the pelvic bone, spine and femur affect how the muscle will move.

The key is using these muscles correctly to create the correct motion in one plane while creating a stretch in another plane of motion to fire once again.

Yes, and I am, and have been focusing on the muscles and their action. Many on these boards are observing the end result articulations, and not the sources of force.

The back leg does internally rotate, but that movement is not the power production source. It's mostly a follow through movement.

 

[jbooth]

Jbooth (any anyone else who likes to play along at home),
When you stand up, feet shoulder width apart, weight evenly distributed, knees bent, facing a wall, toes pointed at wall and hips facing wall... can you move your right thigh (femur) back and forth with IR and ER action? Your feet remain pointed at the wall, the weight remains relatively evenly distributed, and your hips do not turn (nor do they shift laterally) but the relationship between femur and socket changes. Your knee will move in space going from a "knock-kneed" position when the femur is in IR to a "bow-legged" position when the femur is in an ER position. I think this movement is not abduction or adduction as there is no lateral shifting of the hips or shifting of weight, it's just an IR to ER and back to IR movement of the femur in the socket. Are you with me? Can you replicate this movement?
Cheers,
Noontime

From the position that you describe; Moving to knock-kneed is an adduction movement of the femur, and moving the knee out is abduction. To internally rotate, or externally rotate from that position, the foot must pivot.

You've proven that you don't understand how the bones move.

If you lift one foot off of the ground, flexing at the hip and knee you can now IR and ER either the foot or the femur or both. But, you cannot do it, when the foot is weighted.

Speaking of muscles here; the muscles that apply force to IR the femur, is what gets you into the coiled position. You can only uncoil (using the back leg) when the muscles that apply force to ER, are activated.

If you maintain, IR and push (abduct) you will maintain IR. But, I think everyone agrees that the hips open at some point, and that can only be from either, ER force, or to shift onto the front foot and let the muscles in the front leg pull the back hip socket around.

Maintaining IR will do just that, it will maintain the coil. Then, if you shift to the front foot, the back leg will visibly IR, but only because it is now unweighted. Which means it is not pushing and creating force. It is just following the hip.

 

[jbooth]

Even if what you are saying is true (and I am not saying you are) - it certainly begs the question why would anyone care what the movements actually are if you don't feel them....and way, way, way more important to that is how many people have been fooled into trying to the crap you explain....

It isn't crap. It's fact. You seem to be incapable of comprehending the facts.

I'm explaining the facts for anyone who is interested. When I teach, I pretty much tell them to coil, put the weight on the back foot and then push off of the inside of it. The body accomplishes that move as I have tried to explain to you many, many times. It's mostly abduction, followed by external rotation.

 

[jbooth]

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j399/baseballgifs/Bonds/Bonds_715_side.gif[/IMG]

Mann,

Can you explain to me, using the above clips when the weight shifts to the front foot and then, because of the push back, when it shifts back to the rear foot?



Also, can you or Booth explain when the rear leg loses the ability to supply energy? Also, IMO, the barrel is lagging the whole time it is behind the rear hip.

The answer to both questions is; when the back heel rises up. The back foot cannot pivot very well when weight is fully on it. The heel rises as the weight shifts, and the foot pivots when the weight is off of it. The weight goes back onto the back foot, after contact.

In the photo below, do you describe this as no shift? Swing with only the back leg?

His hands are back, the barrel is not even to lag position, and his back foot is ENTIRELY unweighted.

You often say to believe your eyes and not my technical jargon. Well my eyes see a body that is entirely shifted.

Are you saying that although it has shifted, that all of the power to move the bat, still only came from back leg action? Are you saying that no additional force adds to moving the bat at this point?

 

[HYP]

The answer to both questions is; when the back heel rises up. The back foot cannot pivot very well when weight is fully on it. The heel rises as the weight shifts, and the foot pivots when the weight is off of it. The weight goes back onto the back foot, after contact.

I can pivot my foot with the weight on it. Yes, my front foot has to be down to keep me from falling over. It is creating dynamic balance.

In the photo below, do you describe this as no shift? Swing with only the back leg?

His hands are back, the barrel is not even to lag position, and his back foot is ENTIRELY unweighted.

You often say to believe your eyes and not my technical jargon. Well my eyes see a body that is entirely shifted.

Are you saying that although it has shifted, that all of the power to move the bat, still only came from back leg action? Are you saying that no additional force adds to moving the bat at this point?

In your pic it appears that he has just got past the point of no return. IMO, LAG is the time that the barrel is behind the rear hip. It is always lagging until the rear hip is no longer pulling it. The energy has been created. The swing has happened and hopefully it has the proper direction. IMO, I don't think he could check that far in but I could be wrong. Once he gets to the point that he can no longer check. Isn't the barrel gone? So yes. All of the energy came from the backside.

Is his energy into his front foot? Yes but his center of mass is still back. I do not believe the front leg is useless. It does block. It has to or you would continue to move forward. Have you seen the clip of Bonds hitting a fastball for a HR and a off speed pitch for a HR? How did he delay if he was just pushing-blocking-pushing?

Jim,

I have said before that you know the bones and muscles better then I do. The problem I have, like I have said many times is your words would describe what takes place in a crappy 8 year old swing and an elite hitters swing. The elite hitter has more control and is doing something more and better then the 8 year old. What is it? How does an elite hitter stay back and why is it so important to them?

One last thing. You are right. I should stay out of the technical side because what I describe works but I could careless about aBduction and aDduction. It also frustrates the heck out of me that we would use the same terms to talk about an elite swing and an 8 year old swing and say they are doing the same thing. We have beat this horse to death. Many times over. When my son gets his degree we will work on rewriting the manual.

 

[jbooth]

I can pivot my foot with the weight on it. Yes, my front foot has to be down to keep me from falling over. It is creating dynamic balance.



In your pic it appears that he has just got past the point of no return. IMO, LAG is the time that the barrel is behind the rear hip. It is always lagging until the rear hip is no longer pulling it. The energy has been created. The swing has happened and hopefully it has the proper direction. IMO, I don't think he could check that far in but I could be wrong. Once he gets to the point that he can no longer check. Isn't the barrel gone? So yes. All of the energy came from the backside.

Is his energy into his front foot? Yes but his center of mass is still back. I do not believe the front leg is useless. It does block. It has to or you would continue to move forward. Have you seen the clip of Bonds hitting a fastball for a HR and a off speed pitch for a HR? How did he delay if he was just pushing-blocking-pushing?

Jim,

I have said before that you know the bones and muscles better then I do. The problem I have, like I have said many times is your words would describe what takes place in a crappy 8 year old swing and an elite hitters swing. The elite hitter has more control and is doing something more and better then the 8 year old. What is it? How does an elite hitter stay back and why is it so important to them?

One last thing. You are right. I should stay out of the technical side because what I describe works but I could careless about aBduction and aDduction. It also frustrates the heck out of me that we would use the same terms to talk about an elite swing and an 8 year old swing and say they are doing the same thing. We have beat this horse to death. Many times over. When my son gets his degree we will work on rewriting the manual.

You're right, we've beat it to death, I've tried my best to educate you to the facts, and I have failed. I give up. You don't get it, and I've run out of ways to help you get it.

You can continue to post what you believe, and I will post what I know to be the facts. Those who participate here can take what they can from both points of view, and use what they wish.

I respect you, you are a veteran and a patriot, and when we met I got a good impression from you. It's just too bad, that I can't get you to understand where you are going wrong from the pure technical aspect. I believe you teach good swings, you just don't understand the science.

 

[HYP]

You're right, we've beat it to death, I've tried my best to educate you to the facts, and I have failed. I give up. You don't get it, and I've run out of ways to help you get it.

You can continue to post what you believe, and I will post what I know to be the facts. Those who participate here can take what they can from both points of view, and use what they wish.

I respect you, you are a veteran and a patriot, and when we met I got a good impression from you. It's just too bad, that I can't get you to understand where you are going wrong from the pure technical aspect. I believe you teach good swings, you just don't understand the science.

Jim,

Thanks and it was a pleasure meeting you as well. I also have respect for you.