IR versus "Hello Elbow"

[BoardMember]

I'm taking selections of your post in the interest of saving space:

You're right, the vast majority of this pitcher's velocity does come from her arm action. You're also right that she's not a beginner, just demonstrating for the benefit younger students.

And she's an excellent model for your younger students........She exudes discipline from every pore..........

Although as a side note, I noticed her I/R whip breaks down a bit in the "Second End Game" clip because her front side leg collapses a little more and she looses a bit of ground force resistance........

We never had to specifically teach her IR; she just got it from the beginning. I should clarify that the total whipping motion we show our students does include IR, so we aren't specifically NOT teaching it. We are looking for it.

Some do just get it.........As I eluded to in my original I/R thread......And what I've found is that isolating and pointing out that I/R motion to them that makes them so naturally good, only enhances their ability to exploit those mechanics that come so natural.......

IOW........When I say to them "Throw the Ball".....Or better yet in speed training.......THROW IT HARDER!.........They know exactly what actions to recruit to achieve that goal........And when I say to them "I know you've got more in there that you can give me".........They know exactly where to go to get it.........My pitchers know that I'm not happy unless I can hear a grunt-breath, either under their breath, or outwardly loud enough for the batter to hear........That's when I know the pedal is "floored" so to speak........

And the kid in that clip above.......Would know exactly where the gas pedal is......

And I'm happy to hear you are "looking for it".......Because it's as important if not more important then all other bio-mechanical movements in the pitching motion........Which is why I pointed out that 80% of the maximum release velocity can be achieve by that one action alone.......

The dual question is.......What do you do when you find it.........And more importantly........What do you do when you DON'T find it.........How do you guide those students DIRECTLY to that part of the motion that they are missing........And remove the time spent trying to find it, and replace it with time spent actually learning I/R in isolation.......Because it is the foundation of high level fastpitch........

As I mentioned, I have had difficulty getting the pitchers who DON'T just "get it" to perform a relaxed IR without first getting the concept of relaxing down the back side of the circle. That doesn't mean we don't get there eventually, but that has been the order of things.

Relaxation is important.........And one of the key benefits of it is that a student can better "feel" what she is doing while she is learning. I don't think there's much "relaxing" in an accomplished pitchers delivery........Pitching is inherently a ballistic action.......

You seem to have had the opposite experience and do not have difficulty starting with IR. As inde53546 asked above, I'd love to hear some drill suggestions too.

Learning I/R in isolation from 9:00 to release can be achieved using many different que's/Drills.......There is no "one way" that catches every students I/R brainwave..........Some get it from one action/drill........Others get it from different actions/drills that isolate the motion that is I/R..........

What I found most difficult was the students ability to learn when to exploit the acceleration phase of I/R through release......IE they Hold On Too Long vs. releasing early enough to exploit the whipping action of I/R.......

It's late here, so tomorrow I'll go into a few drills I've found/developed that really accelerate the learning process for those who don't get it naturally soon enough for my liking........Which is never too soon.......Because IMO.......If you can throw a softball with I/R..........The rest is a relative piece of cake........

BTW........Our paths are very similar........My DD.......After a successful 4 year career at a prominent So-Cal D1 school.......Is now a very successful PC here in Nor-Cal.........Giving back........Your dad should be proud of you.........

 

[Phil]

Well said, Screwball. Each athlete translates what they are taught into body movements in different ways. Not everyone gets from point A to point B in exactly the same way. Lee Trevino was one of the best golfers in the history of the sport. But no instructor would ever teach an aspiring golfer to swing the way Lee Trevino did. We are picking apart and focusing on one aspect of a very complex athletic movement which, in actuality, should be looked at in conjunction with the whole. I always try to give consideration to the validity of other people's opinions; something I was fortunate to learn while working with some of the best clinicians in the world. Perhaps we may all do that a little better. It's not about being right, it's about being willing to learn.

 

[BoardMember]

Amazing........This is what gets me people........And gets me up on the soap box and brings out my "lecture" voice, and makes me shake my finger like the Greek I am.......

"Steps up on the soap box".........

In a thread titled "I/R versus hello elbow".......Introduced here because of a video dissertation presented by a Pitching Coach on the merits of I/R (re-branded "forearm fire")........

The guy who felt "forearm fire" was so critically important to the high level delivery that he not only blogged about it's importance, but made a 10 minute video presentation for the world to see breaking (his theory) down on what it is.......How it happens, and why it should/needs to happen for success, now says......And I quote:

"We are picking apart and focusing on one aspect of a very complex athletic movement which, in actuality, should be looked at in conjunction with the whole".

HUH?.......How am I (or others) supposed to interpret this reversal?........

Here.......In this thread........We are doing EXACTLY what you've done most recently Phil......Discussing and breaking down a critically important (your words) part of the over all pitching motion........And now you think we shouldn't be doing that?.........

Should your video be removed from the internet?..........Do you not think it should promote in depth discussion on the exact subject of it's very nature?

And then you.......A 17 year veteran PC dedicated to helping your students achieve personal greatness, praise "Screwball" for this quote???

Look, if you are a pitcher and you just do it, you never need all this idle chatter. It's in your blood and it's natural and you figure it out without dad or coach to tell you how for every inch of the way.

You think that was "Well Said" by "Screwball"???.........With regard to something your own DD/PC says she has a hard time teaching in isolation?.........We shouldn't break down the movement in order to learn methods of teaching it?......

Over 1500 views of this thread alone in 3 days because people WANT TO KNOW Phil.........They want as much information as possible when it comes to teaching/learning this aspect of the pitching motion because ironically it is the MOST IMPORTANT "absolute" in the motion sequence........Yet is the HARDEST PART to learn........Don't you get that?

Ok then.......I guess we're done here.........So much for my upcoming thread "I/R in the Classroom-Drills for Skills"..........

Carry on.......Just remember the quote you affirmed as being "well said" when making your next set of video blogs........

Look, if you are a pitcher and you just do it, you never need all this idle chatter. It's in your blood and it's natural and you figure it out without dad or coach to tell you how for every inch of the way.

This is NOT about being "right".......It never was........Mr. "I'll show you how to do it right on video".......

Amazing.........

Carry on.........

"Steps down off of the soap box shaking his head".........

Well said, Screwball. Each athlete translates what they are taught into body movements in different ways. Not everyone gets from point A to point B in exactly the same way. Lee Trevino was one of the best golfers in the history of the sport. But no instructor would ever teach an aspiring golfer to swing the way Lee Trevino did. We are picking apart and focusing on one aspect of a very complex athletic movement which, in actuality, should be looked at in conjunction with the whole. I always try to give consideration to the validity of other people's opinions; something I was fortunate to learn while working with some of the best clinicians in the world. Perhaps we may all do that a little better. It's not about being right, it's about being willing to learn.

 

[flamethrower]

The line forms here for those anxiously awaiting the "I/R in the Classroom-Drills for Skills" thread to be posted.

>>>

 

[Greenmonsters]

The line forms here for those anxiously awaiting the "I/R in the Classroom-Drills for Skills" thread to be posted.

>>>

I think you can count Screwball out

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

So picky with words. Look, pitchers were throwing over 60 mph with the step style and a slingshot, so of course it can be done many ways, even with a different leg drive or none, perhaps. The leg drive however, does a lot for getting closer to the batter and being quicker to the batter to prevent steals and the batter getting a good look at you.

I just don't get how that one part at the bottom of the circle is more important than the leap and drag and the timing of the circle and the legs, etc. and the fact that movement pitches take over and the bottom of the arm does different things.

I think that this is just trying to make a big deal out of one part (that is still important but obvious) and give it a name and theory as if something fell out of the sky and saved softball. Why not get this worked up over theories about the leap and drag or the flip change, for some variety?...Oh I guess I could go over to the technical hitting forum where they do this fun-killing exercise too.

Look, if you are a pitcher and you just do it, you never need all this idle chatter. It's in your blood and it's natural and you figure it out without dad or coach to tell you how for every inch of the way.

It seems like it's BM's way or the highway and I guess I am on the highway even though all my pitching students actually have this IR thing down.

And there in lies the problem...you need to actually read (and re-read) the original "Internal Rotation" thread to grasp this important concept. By the way, it's not just the "bottom of the circle" where I/R happens but it's actually involved from the top of the circle and into and through release.

Lastly, if someone wants drils to improve I/R, just read the IR thread where BM suggests two drills including the "show it and throw it" drill.

IMO, I don't think instructor's can teach good arm whip without understanding the arm actions necessary to generate optimum velocity and spin to the pitch.

 

[inde53546]

I'm at the very beginning in this adventure so breaking it down from the very start would help me from grip on the ball wrist position, dd starts with wrist cocked back, to ball position at various parts of circle. I would love BM to treat me like just walked through the door. I am waiting for the next thread. I have spoken w 4 pcs and cannot find one that doesn't either teach hello elbow or push the ball straight arm. Live in southern WI

 

[Adman]

IMO, I don't think instructor's can teach good arm whip without understanding the arm actions necessary to generate optimum velocity and spin to the pitch.

Call it I/R, Forearm Fire™ or Armpalooza. I don't care. But if I see a PC (real or fabricated) instructing to finish the arm swing with "Hello Elbow", then they just don't get it. I don't care if they "pitched in college," just happen to have "natural" I/R in their own swing, or appeal to the authority of a pitching expert. "Hello Elbow" is a red flag for me.

BoardMember,

The video of you swinging the bat, then showing the same movement throwing a softball is profound. What a great drill!

Thanks,
Adam

 

[inde53546]

Adman where is the video of BM swinging the bat? I'm waiting for is next thread but he might b to angry to come to this post for a while

 

[Adman]

Over on page 3 of this thread, and partially represented in animated gifs repeated throughout.

It's a very simple and clear demo.