IR versus "Hello Elbow"

[Carly]

As a contributor to Fastpitch Power (the blog originally linked), I regret that I've been exceptionally busy this week and haven't been able to contribute to this discussion until now.

BoardMember, it is true that too many pitching coaches are unfortunately still specifically teaching forced non-IR methods. I also completely agree that IR does NOT take place naturally for everyone, nor is the proper release "non-teach." I do believe that it does occur incidentally as part of a GOOD loose whip of the arm, and many of the best pitchers just naturally get that. Of course, tons of pitchers DON'T, and they definitely need to be taught.

In my experience, however, a lot of the young pitchers I've taught who don't get it naturally struggle because their hands are on top of the ball down the back side of the arm circle and they end up "pushing." If they're accustomed to a stiff-armed push, they take a similarly stiff-armed approach (because that's natural for THEM) to IR, and end up turning over really hard and slamming on the breaks, or throwing their elbows way out to the side. I've personally had more success focusing on the whipping motion coming down the back side of the circle with these kids, and if they get that right the IR usually happens too (and can be tweaked from there if necessary).

Again, that's MY experience. I know other parts of the country tend to produce way more elite softball players than where I'm from, so other pitching coaches may not have had that experience. If you HAVE dealt with young pitchers with the issues I've described and have had success focusing specifically on IR from the beginning, I'd truly love to hear more about that. I'm always interested in becoming a better coach.

Phil and I both know that there is no substitute for watching the best in action. We did include a video of Ueno in the same post for that very reason (one I saw a while ago in the original IR thread, and it's really a great example).

Additionally, here is a video of one of our students demonstrating a drill we use for beginners. It's not really a full pitch but you can see her IR well at the end.

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I'm thrilled that someone thought highly enough of one of our blog posts to share it here. We're not at all new to coaching, but we are quite new to blogging. There were a lot of good points made in this discussion, many of which we agree with, so what I'm taking out of it is we need to be a bit more precise in our posts and videos to avoid confusion in the future.

I have a pretty good knowledge of anatomy and kinesiology, so I have a bit of a quibble with something you said in the video.

You said, paraphrasing; that the shoulder disengages after reaching the top and that mostly gravity is all that is left. That is not true. There are at least 5 muscles that are activated and that pull the arm down from the top, and through release.

The latisimus dorsi, the pectoralis, the teres major, the coracobrachialis and to a small extent; the biceps. They are all involved in pulling the hand down and into internal rotation.

Now, if someone teaches a locked straight arm that swings around with no IR and you simply windmill your arm around, in that case, those muscles don't do much. The momentum created by the deltoid bringing the arm up, and gravity pulling it down, would be fairly accurate. But, even in that motion, the lat and pecs are somewhat involved. The pecs and teres less so when you hold that bone position.

What Boardmember is teaching, is how to recruit and involve muscles that will accelerate the hand and not just rely on gravity and/or momentum from the start of the arm circle. I realize that you are saying that also, but I think you're missing a lot of the kinesiology involved in the IR movement.

You are promoting wrist snap done by the muscles that flex the wrist. Boardmember is promoting the use of the pronator muscles to twist the hand before/as it flexes. You aren't doing that in your demo.

Specifically the pronator teres and the pronator quadratis. You don't appear to be using those as much as you are using the flexors. As you stated, your hand is naturally pronating and then you snap or flex. BM is saying to put more emphasis on actively pronating the wrist and let the snap be natural.

I just wanted to reiterate this because I think it's a very good response and I hope Phil has the chance to sign back on again soon and take a look at it.

 

[Goetz]

Over 138,000 people have learned the "K" position from this video Screwball........Hand ON TOP of the ball as soon as it passes the top of the circle..........Watch this young lady PUSH THE HELL outta the ball.......ZERO I/R........In fact, she fighting against I/R.....Making sure there IS NO I/R in her motion..........She's been taught NOT TO ALLOW I/R........Along with the other 138,000 people who've watched this clip.........



There are literally 1000's of training videos out there just like this one Screwball........1000's...........This is what makes me GRUMPY AS HELL when people tell me "you don't have to worry....EVERYONE I/R's".........BS!

Then here comes "Coach Phil"........Seems like a nice enough old dude........Probably a really good coach..........And he's gonna show the world how I/R works.....3 years after I wrote my piece here........And yet as he demonstrates it........IT NEVER HAPPENS "naturally"! He tells you to "snap" that arm down behind the release and I/R will happen "naturally"........THEN IT DOESN'T happen in his OWN demo naturally...........And you bought it........Hook.......Line........And sinker.......Common Screwball........

And you want to know where my passion comes from? You want to preach to me about how "natural" the motion is?......How it's a "non-teach".......And you think I should "warm up" to the idea that it's a "non-teach"???

I'm going to HAVE TO ASSUME that this is EXACTLY what you teach..........Until you show me that I/R is "natural" in your motion..........

Cause it sure IS NOT "natural" in coach Phils.........Who also claims "it just happens naturally"........Yet it NEVER HAPPENS "natually" in his demonstration delivery.........It kills me when people say it happens "naturally" and then demo how it DOESN'T happen naturally..........

HOW MANY PEOPLE have to tell you that they had to leave their coaches because it does NOT happen "naturally" before you'll realize how wrong you are.........

Show me a video of your "natural I/R"...........Then show me a video of one of your students "natural I/R".......

Is that too much to ask?...........

I wish I read this earlier and had someone like Boardmember around my area so my daughter could have been taught the proper way. Now she is trying to undo all the wrong things she was taught like Hello Elbow because I/R certainly doesnt happen naturally for her!

 

[BoardMember]

Carly, this was a thoughtful post and deserves a thoughtful response........

First of all, the student you posted has excellent form, and is not a "beginning" pitcher. She may be performing a drill you use for "new students" of your's, but we all know she's been pitching for sometime......

With that said........It's also VERY obvious to me (as long as I've been at this) that the veracity of her I/R delivery is NOT something that is an "effect" of other things........If you just look at her neck and throwing arm shoulder, she is using both large and small muscles to POWER an I/R delivery.........That coupled with the direction of her forearm/wrist/hand the INSTANT after release tells me this young lady has figured out where the "power" and "command" comes from in fastpitch, whether you taught Internal Rotation to her or not........

If you watch you fathers "attempt" at an I/R delivery, it is not remotely close to this young ladies I/R delivery........Even though he is "being loose and whippy"............That in itself proves that "loose and whippy" is NOT the cause of I/R.......It is powering I/R within a "greased" (loose/whippy) system that is optimal.........

That is NO KNOCK on your father.......But it's completely obvious that he was struggling to "show I/R" using his methodology......It is SO obvious to me that it is not "NATURAL" to him........Although as I said before......I commend him for his effort to seek out the best for his students.......

Now to the important part.........I'm willing to bet that this young lady, BECAUSE OF HER I/R delivery mechanics, could reach almost 80% of her release velocity maximum with less then 1/2 the arm circle (IE starting from 12:00)........And little to no drive AWAY from the mound. (She would obviously still be pushing with her pivot foot)..........The reason is obvious to me. This young lady knows how to THROW the softball.........

You stated that focusing on "whipping down" the backside of the circle I/R "usually happens"..........

What I'm telling you (and everyone else) is that NOW THAT YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS THAT YOUR LOOKING AT (I/R)......(after some study that you obviously agree with).........Why not focus on TEACHING THAT.........

IOW.......Focus on the engine first........vs. the Oil that makes the engine work more efficiently..........IOW........ADD THE HORSEPOWER.......Then ADD THE GREASE..........You are adding "the grease" and hoping for more horsepower.......Sometimes you'll get more........Sometimes you won't........

Why wait, and "hope" they get it like this young lady obviously does........When you CAN TEACH IT....TO EVERYONE...........Now that you know what it is.........

IOW........START THEM OFF where this young lady has progress to.........

This is the approach I've taken for many many years since I figured out what makes fastpitch "tick".........Build the engine........Then add the parts that make it GO FASTER (all the other stuff).........And it's what made me standout against my peers as a PC for so many years.........

Best regards to you and your father.........Keep him working on that I/R delivery until he looks like HER! It'll come much faster if he picks up a bat and does what I'm doing in the clip.........

As a contributor to Fastpitch Power (the blog originally linked), I regret that I've been exceptionally busy this week and haven't been able to contribute to this discussion until now.

BoardMember, it is true that too many pitching coaches are unfortunately still specifically teaching forced non-IR methods. I also completely agree that IR does NOT take place naturally for everyone, nor is the proper release "non-teach." I do believe that it does occur incidentally as part of a GOOD loose whip of the arm, and many of the best pitchers just naturally get that. Of course, tons of pitchers DON'T, and they definitely need to be taught.

In my experience, however, a lot of the young pitchers I've taught who don't get it naturally struggle because their hands are on top of the ball down the back side of the arm circle and they end up "pushing." If they're accustomed to a stiff-armed push, they take a similarly stiff-armed approach (because that's natural for THEM) to IR, and end up turning over really hard and slamming on the breaks, or throwing their elbows way out to the side. I've personally had more success focusing on the whipping motion coming down the back side of the circle with these kids, and if they get that right the IR usually happens too (and can be tweaked from there if necessary).

Again, that's MY experience. I know other parts of the country tend to produce way more elite softball players than where I'm from, so other pitching coaches may not have had that experience. If you HAVE dealt with young pitchers with the issues I've described and have had success focusing specifically on IR from the beginning, I'd truly love to hear more about that. I'm always interested in becoming a better coach.

Phil and I both know that there is no substitute for watching the best in action. We did include a video of Ueno in the same post for that very reason (one I saw a while ago in the original IR thread, and it's really a great example).

Additionally, here is a video of one of our students demonstrating a drill we use for beginners. It's not really a full pitch but you can see her IR well at the end.

<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5upQcyPQlL8?version=3&hl=en_US&rel=0&start=12"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5upQcyPQlL8?version=3&hl=en_US&rel=0&start=12" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

I'm thrilled that someone thought highly enough of one of our blog posts to share it here. We're not at all new to coaching, but we are quite new to blogging. There were a lot of good points made in this discussion, many of which we agree with, so what I'm taking out of it is we need to be a bit more precise in our posts and videos to avoid confusion in the future.



I just wanted to reiterate this because I think it's a very good response and I hope Phil has the chance to sign back on again soon and take a look at it.

 

[AimHigh]

I could never understand what you folks meant by internal rotation. So, I pondered it for awhile and ignored it. Recently my DD's PC told her to "finish like a princess". (which I now understand is internal rotation). I understood that approach was important, but after years of being coached to finish up with "hello elbow" (by a prior PC) she kept forcing herself to finish "hello elbow" even while trying to “finish like a princess.” Now, I think she is making progress with what I hope is more of an internal rotation approach. Short video of the old "hello elbow" from a few months ago and more recent trying to practice international rotation. FWIW, her new approach has added about 5MPH and she cruises now at 60. I notice you folks can be blunt…….

 

[jbooth]

I could never understand what you folks meant by internal rotation. So, I pondered it for awhile and ignored it. Recently my DD's PC told her to "finish like a princess". (which I now understand is internal rotation). I understood that approach was important, but after years of being coached to finish up with "hello elbow" (by a prior PC) she kept forcing herself to finish "hello elbow" even while trying to “finish like a princess.” Now, I think she is making progress with what I hope is more of an internal rotation approach. Short video of the old "hello elbow" from a few months ago and more recent trying to practice international rotation. FWIW, her new approach has added about 5MPH and she cruises now at 60. I notice you folks can be blunt…….

It says "this video is private." I can't see it.

 

[Phil]

Probably the primary focus in our instruction is relaxation. It has produced consistently outstanding results, from the perspective of solid mechanics. I believe we are all saying essentially the same thing, each in the language and terminology with which we are most familiar, and which hopefully works best for out athletes. As far as my video is concerned, I am a 1951 model with a lot of mileage. I played and coached ice hockey for many years, as well as competitive tennis. I have coached and taught the skills (especially pitching) of softball for the past 17 years. I do a lot of upper body weight training so that my Italian suits still fit me. Perhaps my demonstrations are starting to reflect my wear and tear. As you can hopefully see from the video clip posted by Carly, of one of our typical young students; they get it. My reference to "disengaging the shoulder" was simply to distinguish between a relaxed natural downward arm movement as opposed to forcing the hand downward with tension, premature shoulder rotation, or forward upper body thrust. In hitting there is bat lag. The hands reach the hitting zone first, then the bat head fires through. Similarly in pitching, the elbow (hands in batting) reaches the throw zone first, then the forearm (bat head) fires through; yes, with internal forearm rotation in both cases. The sharing of ideas can only benefit the students whom we are dedicated to help. Thank you for your comments.

 

[inde53546]

I know this post has ruffled some feathers but to be honest it has been as helpful and informative as just about any that Ive read. Keep it going .

board member I'd love some suggestions for drills you use to teach IR if you would be willing.

 

[AimHigh]

It says "this video is private." I can't see it.

oppps, fixed, thanks.

 

[Carly]

I'm taking selections of your post in the interest of saving space:

First of all, the student you posted has excellent form, and is not a "beginning" pitcher. She may be performing a drill you use for "new students" of your's, but we all know she's been pitching for sometime......

With that said........It's also VERY obvious to me (as long as I've been at this) that the veracity of her I/R delivery is NOT something that is an "effect" of other things........If you just look at her neck and throwing arm shoulder, she is using both large and small muscles to POWER an I/R delivery.........That coupled with the direction of her forearm/wrist/hand the INSTANT after release tells me this young lady has figured out where the "power" and "command" comes from in fastpitch, whether you taught Internal Rotation to her or not........

Now to the important part.........I'm willing to bet that this young lady, BECAUSE OF HER I/R delivery mechanics, could reach almost 80% of her release velocity maximum with less then 1/2 the arm circle (IE starting from 12:00)........And little to no drive AWAY from the mound. (She would obviously still be pushing with her pivot foot)..........The reason is obvious to me. This young lady knows how to THROW the softball.........

You stated that focusing on "whipping down" the backside of the circle I/R "usually happens"..........

What I'm telling you (and everyone else) is that NOW THAT YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS THAT YOUR LOOKING AT (I/R)......(after some study that you obviously agree with).........Why not focus on TEACHING THAT.........

You're right, the vast majority of this pitcher's velocity does come from her arm action. You're also right that she's not a beginner, just demonstrating for the benefit younger students.

We never had to specifically teach her IR; she just got it from the beginning. I should clarify that the total whipping motion we show our students does include IR, so we aren't specifically NOT teaching it. We are looking for it.

As I mentioned, I have had difficulty getting the pitchers who DON'T just "get it" to perform a relaxed IR without first getting the concept of relaxing down the back side of the circle. That doesn't mean we don't get there eventually, but that has been the order of things. You seem to have had the opposite experience and do not have difficulty starting with IR. As inde53546 asked above, I'd love to hear some drill suggestions too.

 

[BoardMember]

Look, if you are a pitcher and you just do it, you never need all this idle chatter. It's in your blood and it's natural and you figure it out without dad or coach to tell you how for every inch of the way.

Perfect.......Then I'll expect no more responses from you to our I/R "chatter" again........Just stay out of the way of others who wish to learn ok?........That's EXACTLY what I've been trying to tell you.........Seems like you finally got the message..........

It seems like it's BM's way or the highway and I guess I am on the highway even though all my pitching students actually have this IR thing down.

I/R is NOT my way........But it is THE way........It is THE WAY all high level pitcher throw a softball underhand.......

No don't go away mad.......Just go away.........